Author Topic: How do I invest in gold?  (Read 9154 times)

The Rabbi

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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2006, 05:59:08 AM »
I cannot prove that the dollar will not collapse in my lifetime.
I also cannot prove that George Bush will not be found in bed with Hilary Clinton.  But anyone claiming that he was needs to provide proof in order to be taken seriously.

My comment about people projecting their own experiences was aimed more at Art's comment about people in Europe or Vietnam.
I don't know what your motivation is about money/currency and honestly it doesn't matter to me.  But if you are thinking of investing your mother's money in gold at this point I would strongly suggest getting some good advice.
The dollar is the standard of currency now and for the foreseeable future.  It rests on the status of the US as the sole superpower.  That might change.  History suggests it will change.  But I am not going to make investment decisions based on something I see no evidence for right now.
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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2006, 10:40:24 AM »
Rabbi,

Thanks for your temperate and concerned response.  

I started thinking about investing some of my mom's money in gold- and writing checks for it- as soon as I started helping her manage things, in 1998 as I said earlier.  At that time I considered gold bullion at a spot price of $300/oz or below a screaming buy, and bought as much as her finances (and her nerves) could handle, along with bags of 'junk' US silver coins.  I also bought her some lower graded MS61- MS63 PCGS/NGC numismatic gold coins as well (I really like Saint Gaudens double eagles, but Liberties are more collectible).  

That has proven to be a worthwhile move across the board so far, I have not taken profits on any of her physical holdings and do not plan to do so for a good while yet. The physical holdings serve more of a role as insurance in her overall portfolio rather than as investments in the traditional sense of the word.  There was a time not too long ago when reputable financial advisors suggested their clients have a certain percentage- usually 5- 10%- invested in physical gold and silver to play the role of fail- safe.  That approach is nowadays almost completely passe' but IMHO is still a wise decision.  In fact I prefer a higher percentage than that myself, which is likely no surprise.

Most of her money has been kept in Treasuries or various CDs.  I have used several different currencies via Everbank's foreigh currency CDs ascurrency trends have changed through the years.  We had a good run with the Euro for a bit, then switched to New Zealand dollars for a good while to take advantage of their proximity to the burgeoning Chinese market.  The NZ$ CDs offered interest rates of 5%APR or better plus currency appreciation over time of about 60%, and as a plus they are FDIC insured.  As New Zealand's currency problems became apparent recently I shifted those CDs to Australian dollar CDs or to Commodity CDs.

Having taken care of her physical metals, I opened an account for her with Rick Rule's Global Resource Investments, a full service brokerage firm specializing in natural resources.  This account was intended to handle the speculative portion of her portfolio, and the mining stocks definitely qualify as speculative.  That was in 2002, and spot prices on gold were still holding below the $300 line.  Prices on a lot of junior mining companies were below a dollar per share, there was little or no widespread interest in gold or gold mining.  In other words, prices were low.  As in "Buy low."  My broker is a university trained mining engineer with feet-on-the-rocks experience, and I asked for and took his best advice (still do, too).  We bought into several companies, bringing her GRI portfolio to a total of ten stocks of various sorts.  Among those we bought MDVAF in January 2003 and KGILF in February 2003.

The "rules" say that on specs like these, you hope it doubles, then sell half, recoup your initial investment and reinvest that elsewhere to broaden your portfolio, meanwhile holding half the original stock as a paid-for freebie.  But I waited.  I waited until the end of February of this year in fact, and then sold all the Virginia Gold and Kirkland Lake Gold shares.  Virginia went from $.823 to $11.175 in that time, and Kirkland went from $1.48 to $5.435.  Other holdings went up 2X or 3X- in fact most of them did- but they are still there waiting.  I had held the entire portfolio through one roller coaster decline and recovery in the mining shares, and did not want to do it again.  We dropped those two from the portfolio, and used the profits to add four new items and increased holdings in one stock that had been bought into earlier in a small way.  With a little luck- and that is always a consideration when digging in the dirt is concerned- we'll have found another Virginia in the making.  If not, having 3000 shares of a $.75 stock zero out on you is far less painful than, say, what happened to the people who bought into Enron or the dotcoms at near market highs assuming there was nowhere to go but up.  But having 3000 shares of a dollar stock go to $10 or $15 is nice.

The original investment in that account has a bit more than trebled since 2002.  Granted not all of that is gold stocks, some of it is energy and other resource companies.  But it's still enough to keep the accountant clucking and figuring- and to make my mom wonder if the broker is doing something dishonest.  She can't believe anyone can make that much money and not be doing something illegal.

So, what does the future hold?  I'm betting on continued and broadening military conflict, increasing trade deficits, increasing debt of all kinds, a declining (spotty at first) real estate market, continued inflation (especially with no more M-3 reports) and 'Helicopter Ben' Bernanke at the helm of the Fed, rising energy costs, growing antagonism against the US, and a continued rise to new highs in precious metals prices as well as the prices of pretty much any other 'real stuff' like energy and food you care to name.  Could I be wrong?  Sure.  Might it cost me money to be wrong?  Certainly.  Does it scare me?  Not as much as having everything in dollar denominated investments would, not at all.

Why do I think this way?  Well, I never studied economics for one thing, I got to choose which economists I wanted to read (and none of them were named Keynes).  As I said, I studied history, and spent most of my working career as a reference librarian and most of that at various Army libraries.  So I got to know a lot of people on the bleeding edge, and since about half of that time was in the special operations community I got to know a lot of people doing the not-officially-reported stuff.  Yeah, I know.  Nobody in America can keep a secret.  In fact there ARE no secrets, everybody knows everything.

As a result of the cumulative experiences of the past 30 years, I have a decided tendency not to trust the government and especially where money is concerned, not to trust the media especially where truth is concerned, not to be very much  impressed with what is popular or faddish.  I don't watch TV, I read.  A lot.  A WHOLE lot.  I used to have whole libraries at my disposal, now I can do even better with a keyboard and a handful of subscriptions paid for on my own.  I started using computers professionally in 1975 and have worked hard at keeping up with the practical applications of the technology.  It's amazing.  It's FUN.

And done right, it's profitable too.

I also think that eventually this current economic cycle based on 'things' will come to a close and a new cycle based on paper (well, these days it'll be digits) will begin.  When that becomes evident I will shift out of things and into digits.  But not right now.  Right now there is more money to be made with more safety in stuff- the RIGHT stuff- than in digits.  But that too will eventually change again...

lpl/nc

Art Eatman

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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2006, 10:52:27 AM »
Gee, Lee, you sound a lot like me!

Sorry 'bout dat. Smiley

I've done a smaller-scale sort of thing.  And, worked out a way to buy land in front of the mob, so I could enjoy playing on it (quail, dove, coyote & javelina hunting) while I watched folks drive up the "value"--or the price, anyway.

I developed my "ten-percent theory":  Buy a hundred acres at $100/acre.  Sell ten, ten-acre tracts at $1,000/acre.  Carry paper; 10% down, 10 years at 10%.  That way, I make ten percent on my money. Smiley  I can think in terms of ten.

Beats working for a living...

Art
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Justin

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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2006, 05:26:44 PM »
Looking online, I notice that you can order American Eagle proof coins directly from the US Mint.

Is there a compelling reason why I wouldn't just order them directly from Uncle Sam, and squirrel them away?


Also, I realize that gold is rising in price.  I have no intention of buying gold to make a profit, but rather simply as a way to store some wealth as a physical asset to hedge against {insert your favorite societal-collapsing disaster *here*}.

If I want to purchase gold for that reason, it seems like a bad idea if the price has gone up.

Would one be better off storing their wealth in a physical asset other than gold or silver?
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The Rabbi

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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2006, 05:33:49 PM »
I find it interesting that 6 months ago there were threads on investing in real estate and now that that market has obviously cooled people have moved on to the nextbestthing.  Another 2 months and we'll see more discussion of alt-fuels and another 6 months everyone will be asking about municipal bonds.  I love getting older.
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Justin

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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2006, 05:40:36 PM »
Not helping with my questions.

Thanks, though.
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The Rabbi

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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2006, 03:23:05 AM »
Quote from: Justin
Not helping with my questions.

Thanks, though.
OK.
Here are the answers:
Gold bullion coins are sold at price of bullion plus small mark up.  Find the seller with the smallest mark up, including shipping costs.  I have found eBay to be pretty good.  I havent looked at the gov't's site to see what they charge.
Diversification of assets applies within asset classes as well.  Thus, gold is one physical asset.  Silver might be another.  Palladium another.  Ammunition has always done OK.  Other things used as a hedge against inflation are antiques, art works, rare books and even Elvis statues for all I know.  Considerations are storage, cost to acquire, wide enough market to provide liquidity when you want/need to sell.
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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2006, 03:26:01 AM »
Justin,

Shop for 'the most metal for the money.'  Proof coins are numismatics, or collectible coins, and you pay a premium above the value of the gold or silver they contain to get a pretty coin.  NOT what you want to do, if you are buying for 'insurance' purposes, as you profess to be doing.  Tulving ( http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html ) lists 1 oz. gold Eagles for $658.50 (4/23), while the Mint lists the proofs for $770.  Is the proof going to fetch that extra $110 in the future?  I don't know, but that $110 is a sixth of the way toward another coin... .

If you don't have any precious metals holdings at all, start with junk silver.  The same link to Tulving gives you prices for a full bag of 90% silver US coins, either dimes or quarters.  My advice is to get dimes, if it really is an insurance buy you're making, you will want the smallest recognizeable unit of metal if you ever have to really use it to buy something.  The old question of 'how will you get change from an ounce of gold' is worth consideration.

Is there anything better as monetary insurance than gold or silver, you ask?  Well, there hasn't been for several thousand years of human history.  This blind faith in paper and digits has only been around since 1913, when the Federal Reserve was created.  It's like religion, you get to believe in whatever you want.  I'll take precious metals, thanks.

The "price" of precious metals is essentially irrelevant any more.  It is the value of the dollar that is changing, an ounce of gold is still worth an ounce of gold.  Speaking of prices in dollars is like trying to measure something with a tape measure made of rubber- there is no real standard when the measuring device is not the same from use to use.   It's OK to wait to buy during drops, as there will certainly be volatility- but if you try to time any market all the time you are apt to get your head handed to you.  Buy when you have the money to do it, buy over time and dollar-cost-average your purchases.  

Yes, it was a lot less painful to be buying when gold was under $300 an ounce.  You weren't buying then because you couldn't see the need to do so.  Now you do see the need to buy some, and are worried about the price.  Well, worry about the DOLLAR- then your worries will be well placed.  How much will the gold be worth in dollars as the value of the dollar continues to decline?  Is Ben Bernanke going to all of a sudden turn into Paul Volcker and boost interest rates to 20%?  I don't think so... .

Find a local coin deler if you have one/some, start with small purchases, build some trust and confidence as you learn the ropes.  IMO this rise in prices for PMs has a ways to go yet, as the dollar continues to decline.  In fact, it's my guess you ain't seen nothin' yet- a double in gold and a triple in silver is just the beginning.  

Good luck, feel free to email me if you have questions... .

lpl/nc

The Rabbi

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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2006, 04:39:25 AM »
Quote from: Lee Lapin
Justin,

Tulving ( http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html ) lists 1 oz. gold Eagles for $658.50 (4/23), while the Mint lists the proofs for $770.  Is the proof going to fetch that extra $110 in the future?  I don't know, but that $110 is a sixth of the way toward another coin... .

I
I looked at their site.  Am I missing something or is their minimum order really 20 oz?  To get 20 K-rands would cost around $13,000.  I am not sure I would spend 13k on insurance, no matter what the risk.
Look at www.ajpm.com.  Their k-rands are quoted at $640 sell this am, shipping fee (under 10 oz) but no minimum.  I have used them before and they deliver.
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Justin

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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2006, 07:59:26 AM »
So how do I go about finding junk silver locally?
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How do I invest in gold?
« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2006, 02:36:42 PM »
Check the yellow pages under 'Coin Dealers' and see how many if any are local to you.  Failing that, check pawn shops or flea markets for people selling small quantities of junk silver.  I see dealers at most of the gun shows around here selling junk silver also, keep an ear open for news of coin shows in your area also.  

Know what you're looking for, US 90% silver coins (dimes, quarters, half dollars)were minted up until 1964 and circulated until all were taken out of circulation by people like me who understood Gresham's Law (I'm old enough to remember LBJ's speech that 'silver was too valuable to use in coins').  Also, Kennedy half dollars were minted in 40% silver from 1965 till 1969.  Look for loose coins or rolls, and always check each coin just to be sure.  

Be aware that as the quantity of coins you buy goes down, the price per coin goes up.  IOW, on a per-coin basis, its cheaper buying a whole bag than one coin at the time.  But if you can't spring for $10,000 at one time, then you just buy whatever you can afford on a recurring basis.  But find a place to note 'bag' prices and figure the markup on smaller quantities based on that- AJPM offers less-than-bag quantities and updates their prices too- see http://apmex.com/shop/buy/90_and_40_Silver_Coins.asp?orderid=0 .

Good luck with it,

lpl/nc