Author Topic: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...  (Read 25964 times)

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2010, 01:52:52 PM »
Well, it may be "normal" (as in common) but definitely it is scary even if you or I don't specifically remember it.

Let's strap you down to a table and start cutting off pieces without anesthesia and see how non-scary it is...  =|


As to whether the state should interfere, well I am undecided as I am pretty much an anarchist  :lol:

been to a bris?

its not that scary   comparitively
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2010, 02:31:58 PM »
A traditional bris is actually fairly scary. Not sure which one you attended.

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"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

AJ Dual

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2010, 02:35:41 PM »
A traditional bris is actually fairly scary. Not sure which one you attended.

MicrolivesinacountryfullofJewsBalrog

Well, if your parents were dumb enough to hire Rabbi "Shakes" Greenberg, well...
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makattak

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2010, 02:38:02 PM »
Tatooing is also a non-scary procedure that has been around a long time. Is that something parents should be able to choose?

What is wrong with allowing the actual owner of the foreskin to choose? Nobody said all circumcisions should be banned - we are talking circumcisions without consent.

What is wrong with allowing the actual owner of the arm to choose whether to get vaccinated or not? Nobody said all vaccinations should be banned- we are talking about vaccinations without consent.

I mean, have you seen how children WAIL when they get vaccinations? You can tell they are not doing this by choice. What about their rights? What about their wants?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2010, 02:39:31 PM »
Well, if your parents were dumb enough to hire Rabbi "Shakes" Greenberg, well...

A traditional bris involves the mohel removing excess blood from the wound directly with his mouth. That not creepy enough for you?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MicroBalrog

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #80 on: November 14, 2010, 02:40:51 PM »
What is wrong with allowing the actual owner of the arm to choose whether to get vaccinated or not? Nobody said all vaccinations should be banned- we are talking about vaccinations without consent.

I mean, have you seen how children WAIL when they get vaccinations? You can tell they are not doing this by choice. What about their rights? What about their wants?

An interesting strawman. But a strawman.

In these cases, shouldn't it be the place of legislators to judge these things by a case-by-case basis?

[no, I don't remember anybody wailing during my vaccinations]
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

zahc

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #81 on: November 14, 2010, 02:47:08 PM »
Quote
Question: why do Christians circumcise, despite Paul's remarks on the subject?

Do they? I think the situation is more "Mainstream Americans, many of whom happen to be Christians, circumcise their children in the medical quackery tradition". Christians in the UK or elsewhere in the world don't circumcise, and I don't think that the Christians who circumcise do it for religious reasons.

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makattak

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #82 on: November 14, 2010, 03:07:25 PM »
An interesting strawman. But a strawman.

In these cases, shouldn't it be the place of legislators to judge these things by a case-by-case basis?

[no, I don't remember anybody wailing during my vaccinations]

Honestly, I don't argue about a localities right to make rules different from other localities. I'm a firm believer in federalism.

In this case, I argue that they are stupid. Circumcision is a medical procedure for which there are costs, benefits, and risks. Many people think it's barbaric and dangerous, and the other side believes it is beneficial and worth the slight risks.

Vaccinations are medical procedures for which there are costs, benefits, and risks. Many people believe it is a scam and a conspiracy, the other side thinks they are beneficial far beyond the risks. Should the vaccination/autism people take over a locality and outlaw vaccinations for children, would you agree with that? I'd posit they have the right, but are stupid to do so. (And would avoid that locality accordingly.) Much the same as this case in San Francisco.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

White Horseradish

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #83 on: November 14, 2010, 03:17:01 PM »
Honestly, I don't argue about a localities right to make rules different from other localities. I'm a firm believer in federalism.

In this case, I argue that they are stupid. Circumcision is a medical procedure for which there are costs, benefits, and risks. Many people think it's barbaric and dangerous, and the other side believes it is beneficial and worth the slight risks.

Vaccinations are medical procedures for which there are costs, benefits, and risks. Many people believe it is a scam and a conspiracy, the other side thinks they are beneficial far beyond the risks. Should the vaccination/autism people take over a locality and outlaw vaccinations for children, would you agree with that? I'd posit they have the right, but are stupid to do so. (And would avoid that locality accordingly.) Much the same as this case in San Francisco.
See, the supposed benefits of circumcision don't come into effect until the subject is sexually active, which at least theoretically means they are at the age of consent. There is no downside to waiting.  Vaccinations are of immediate benefit and you are on much more solid ground with the reality of those benefits.  Oh, and which vaccinations leave permanent marks?
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tyme

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #84 on: November 14, 2010, 04:20:10 PM »
Quote from: makattak
Circumcision is a medical procedure for which there are costs, benefits, and risks.

It is a medical procedure but rarely a medically-motivated procedure.  Costs, benefits, and risks are not weighed.  Tradition is the deciding factor.

In contrast, vaccinations have a well established medical purpose.  Vaccinating your kids not only reduce their risk of disease, but also helps teachers and other kids your kids are near all day in school, and those kids' and teachers' vaccinations reduce the risk for your kids.  Children are routinely in closer proximity, and are generally less hygienic, than adults.  There is no alternative to mandatory vaccination to take advantage of herd immunity.  Smallpox was eradicated not with microscopic bombs, but rather through intense vaccination efforts.  What happens when people decide based on ignorance that immunizations are unnecessary?  One infected person (or animal carrier) introduced into a population with insufficient immunization can cause unnecessarily large outbreaks, and are more difficult for public health agencies to contain once they get started:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles#The_Americas

Legitimate medical reasons for circumcision should be handled on an as-needed basis.  It isn't very difficult to distinguish rare instances of medically-recommended circumcision from routine circumcision: "Oh look, it's a boy... get the knife!"  The issues of penile cancer and easier HIV transmission need not be addressed at birth; they can both wait until adolescence.  You won't get prostate cancer if you have that removed, so perhaps we should do that at birth, too?  Baloney.

Parents make religious and ideological decisions for their children?  Some parents turn their children into little robots, and more try, and that's unfortunate, and not easily dealt with because of the difficulty of determining what decisions are necessary for the welfare of children and which decisions are excessively restrictive or attempts to instill propaganda.  However, the issue of physical mutilation is quite clear, and in that realm it is easy to distinguish what's (medically) necessary from what amounts to culturally-motivated branding of infants who can't possibly understand the culture which seeks to brand them.

Is there serious physical harm?  Not in most cases.  Neither would there be serious harm by tattooing infants, giving them 12 ear piercings and a grommet in each ear.  I doubt most people would appreciate being stuck with ears topologically indistinguishable from doughnuts just because their parents thought it looked cute, or because their parents thought it was necessary for metaphysical reasons.

We cannot know what traditions a child will believe in when he or she reaches adulthood.  Routine circumcision, tattoos, piercing, and surgical implants for children are not acceptable if our goal is to raise children who think for themselves, who may, and should, choose freely what to believe in and what cultures to identify with when they're adults.  Sadly, too many parents agree that children should be financially and socially independent from their parents, yet become distraught if children exhibit spiritual or even philosophical independence.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #85 on: November 14, 2010, 04:58:52 PM »
There is no downside to waiting.

thats not true according to the adults i know who have been circumsized  to a man they would have rather had it done as an infant. it was fairly traumatic to them as adults.  primarily in a psychological way.

how many of you who have objections to circumcision have boy kids? unsnipped ones?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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White Horseradish

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #86 on: November 14, 2010, 05:11:03 PM »
There is no downside to waiting.

thats not true according to the adults i know who have been circumsized  to a man they would have rather had it done as an infant. it was fairly traumatic to them as adults.  primarily in a psychological way.
So just because you were too young to remember and understand it was less traumatic? Or it's OK to traumatize so long as parents think it's a good idea? That does not make any sense. 

how many of you who have objections to circumcision have boy kids? unsnipped ones?
I have two. What's your point?
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2010, 05:12:40 PM »
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2010, 06:04:32 PM »
So just because you were too young to remember and understand it was less traumatic? Or it's OK to traumatize so long as parents think it's a good idea? That does not make any sense.


yea  that which you don't remember is less traumatic
thats amongst the reasons they let addicted new borns kick cold turkey right away.  compared to being born everything else is a day at the beach
the adults i knew who were circumcised all wish it had been done "back then"



you made a choice as a parent regarding your kids   why would you deny the right to chose to another parent?  or is it just some choice is good?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Monkeyleg

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #90 on: November 14, 2010, 06:32:08 PM »
A rabbi with shaky hands? Could be worse.

Video

tyme

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #91 on: November 14, 2010, 06:38:00 PM »
Quote
There is no downside to waiting.

thats not true according to the adults i know who have been circumsized  to a man they would have rather had it done as an infant. it was fairly traumatic to them as adults.  primarily in a psychological way.

Hindsight is a wonderful gift.  You're suggesting parents should act based on precognitive knowledge of what their child will want as an adult?
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White Horseradish

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #92 on: November 14, 2010, 06:51:18 PM »
you made a choice as a parent regarding your kids   
I chose to let them choose for themselves. Should they decide to have a circumcision I would not stop them.

why would you deny the right to chose to another parent?  or is it just some choice is good?
Why would you allow that choice to be denied to children? Choice made for yourself is good. Choice made for another is bad. Outside of a small number of medically necessary cases this particular choice is essentially parental whim and tribal tradition. See the picture of another tribal tradition I posted before. Would marking my kid's face like that be a choice I should be making? You know, because poking him with needles when he is younger will be forgotten.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #93 on: November 14, 2010, 07:02:33 PM »
in the real world parents make a host of decisions for their kids.  life altering ones.  its part of the job description.  like the man sang  "if you chose not to decide you still have made a choice"  i would not presume to tell a parent that he be required to circumcise nor would i deem it right to say they can't make that choice for their kids.  key words here their kids.  anarchy and liberty have some funny wiggles and twists eh  depending on the issue and whose ox is being gored.  some folks like the nanny state when its dictates fit their own world view
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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White Horseradish

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #94 on: November 14, 2010, 07:07:56 PM »
in the real world parents make a host of decisions for their kids.  life altering ones.  its part of the job description.  like the man sang  "if you chose not to decide you still have made a choice"  i would not presume to tell a parent that he be required to circumcise nor would i deem it right to say they can't make that choice for their kids. 
I asked before and I will ask again: where do you draw the line and why? Why are some tribal traditions OK, and others are not?

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

BridgeRunner

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #95 on: November 14, 2010, 07:27:58 PM »
thats not true according to the adults i know who have been circumsized  to a man they would have rather had it done as an infant. it was fairly traumatic to them as adults.  primarily in a psychological way.

My sympathy to any guy who requires genital surgery. It ain't a fun time. Guys who decide that they think a modified dick looks better?  Man up.  Cosmetic surgery, like other surgery, hurts, but I have a lot less sympathy for someone who chose it.

I don't see how cosmetically altering a baby boy's penis is ok because "if he wants to do it later, it will hurt.". Um. Tough.  During each of my pregnancies, several friends who had been circumcised, in most cases because their parents were practicing Jews, asked me to consider not doing it.

It was prett persuasive when several friends said "My parents removed part of my penis and I wish they hadn't".  Way more persuasive than the converse. No matter how much it sucks to have this cosmetic procedure done as an adult, I have a hard time seeing how it sucks as much as having had it done and wishing it hadn't been.

freakazoid

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2010, 07:52:03 PM »
Quote
Or it's OK to traumatize so long as parents think it's a good idea?

Who's being traumatized?
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seeker_two

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2010, 08:01:59 PM »
Good grief!....I leave for just one weekend....and I come back to find four pages about PENISES!!!  :facepalm:

Be glad I'm not a mod....otherwise, I'd do a month-long ban for any APS member with a penis....and this board would get pretty dull with just Bridgewalker, Liz, and the lurking Homeland Security drones.....  :P
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White Horseradish

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Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2010, 08:05:59 PM »
I think it is safe to say that, no matter which way you slice it, the penis is evil.