Author Topic: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...  (Read 25836 times)

seeker_two

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2010, 08:11:48 PM »
I think it is safe to say that, no matter which way you slice it, the penis is evil.

IMHO, you just won the Innernetz......  =D
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

White Horseradish

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2010, 08:13:30 PM »
I think it is safe to say that, no matter which way you slice it, the penis is evil.
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Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

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roo_ster

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2010, 08:32:47 PM »
Choice made for yourself is good. Choice made for another is bad.

Hogwash.  It is in the job description as a parent.  Parents make life-changing choices all the time for their kids. 

I see CSD got here before I did, but I'll paste & emphasize a bit:

in the real world parents make a host of decisions for their kids.  life altering ones.  its part of the job description.  like the man sang  "if you chose not to decide you still have made a choice"  i would not presume to tell a parent that he be required to circumcise nor would i deem it right to say they can't make that choice for their kids.  key words here their kidsanarchy and liberty have some funny wiggles and twists eh  depending on the issue and whose ox is being gored.  some folks like the nanny state when its dictates fit their own world view

The latter bit is true, in spades.

As far as the facial tattoos posted before and the "Where would you draw the line?"  I'd suspect the tats in the linked photos were done by adults and not pertinent.  The question, in that context, is asinine as it hasn't even occurred yet that anyone can document.  You want to ban monster facial tattoos for babies when it is only a weak hypothetical, not yet a reality.  Why not legislate the proper use of time machines or perpetual motion machines.  Hey, if we're not going to let reality stop our governmental ban stick, lets get cracking!
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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White Horseradish

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2010, 08:49:28 PM »
Hogwash.  It is in the job description as a parent.  Parents make life-changing choices all the time for their kids. 
Are any and all life changing choices OK?

As far as the facial tattoos posted before and the "Where would you draw the line?"  I'd suspect the tats in the linked photos were done by adults and not pertinent.  The question, in that context, is asinine as it hasn't even occurred yet that anyone can document.  You want to ban monster facial tattoos for babies when it is only a weak hypothetical, not yet a reality.  Why not legislate the proper use of time machines or perpetual motion machines.  Hey, if we're not going to let reality stop our governmental ban stick, lets get cracking!
OK. Where do you draw the line?

I came up with this example because I wanted to avoid the whole FGM thing. However, it looks like you don't want to do that. Fine.

Why is cutting boy bits acceptable and cutting girl bits mutilation? Both are tribal traditions. Both are done with no medical necessity. Provided we are not talking about removing the clitoris, but just the hood, or maybe the labia, is that OK? Where is the difference? Is this a realistic enough example for you?

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

roo_ster

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2010, 09:12:25 PM »
Reason.com's blog mentioned this example of Frisco Fruiiness in a post titled "The Most Unkindest Cut of All":
http://reason.com/blog/2010/11/12/glenn-becks-ridiculous-misread#comments

The first 9 comments are epic.  Epic.
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roo_ster

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roo_ster

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2010, 09:13:43 PM »
Here's another down in the mix:
Quote
Colonel Dietrich|11.12.10 @ 6:12PM|#

I must admit that I am uncomfortable with this...Jewish Ritual.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2010, 09:30:15 PM »
My sympathy to any guy who requires genital surgery. It ain't a fun time. Guys who decide that they think a modified dick looks better?  Man up.  Cosmetic surgery, like other surgery, hurts, but I have a lot less sympathy for someone who chose it.

I don't see how cosmetically altering a baby boy's penis is ok because "if he wants to do it later, it will hurt.". Um. Tough.  During each of my pregnancies, several friends who had been circumcised, in most cases because their parents were practicing Jews, asked me to consider not doing it.

It was prett persuasive when several friends said "My parents removed part of my penis and I wish they hadn't".  Way more persuasive than the converse. No matter how much it sucks to have this cosmetic procedure done as an adult, I have a hard time seeing how it sucks as much as having had it done and wishing it hadn't been.

none of the guys did it for cosmetic reasons

or this guy
http://www.circinfo.net/men_circumcised_as_adults_tell_it_as_it_is.html
http://www.circinfo.com/an_account.html
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2010, 09:35:08 PM »
Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on Today at 17:58:52
the adults i know who have been circumsized
Quote from: cassandra and sara's daddy on Today at 17:58:52
it was fairly traumatic to them as adults. 


you accidentally left out the part where i said primarily psychologically  guys are funny about sharp things round there
this is kinda like religious discussions. no one is trying to take away your making choices for your kids  why would you take away another parents right to chose? for their kids?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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zahc

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2010, 09:37:55 PM »
People here have scoffed at the comparison between male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation, insisting that the two are completely different. But, where the comparison holds is in the fact that where FGM is practiced, the arguments for and against are basically identical to MGM. People will insist that it's cleaner, that it prevents disease, that women prefer it, that the men prefer it, that the women are happy that it was done to them, and that it's some kind of deviation to be natural and unmodified. They will also, with a straight face and apparently believing themselves, insist that sexual function is not impeded, just like those that say the same about MGM, despite the pile of skin and nerves in the trashcan, and the scarred and altered results. It's all the same, just with the genders switched. The motivations are exactly the same...desire to control and mutilate the helpless to satisfy some kind of bizarre reptillian-brain urges in the empowered adults, along with a coping mechanism of their own mutilation and a desire to continue the practice so that part of the population isn't handicapped compared to the other.

Quote
According to a joint WHO/UNICEF/UNFPA  statement, the use of the word "mutilation" reinforces the idea that this practice is a violation of the human right..They state that, at the community level, however, the term can be problematic...parents resent the suggestion that they are "mutilating" their daughters.
wikipedia

Quote
Two studies have reported that FGC is associated with decreased risk of HIV.[50][51]
"AIDS and women's health care in developing countries". Trop Geogr Med 44 (3): 284–5.

Quote
Lightfoot-Klein (1989) studied circumcised and infibulated females in Sudan, stating, "Contrary to expectations, nearly 90% of all women interviewed said that they experienced orgasm (climax) or had at various periods of their marriage experienced it. Frequency ranged from always to rarely." Lightfoot-Klein stated that the quality of orgasm varied from intense and prolonged, to weak or difficult to achieve.

Quote
In fact, among certain communities, especially Mary Githuma's Meru and Nyamato's Kisii, even educated men prefer to marry circumcised women...
Quote
A recent study carried out by FPAK among the Meru found out that most of the parents, and indeed their daughters, opt for FGM just to toe the line.
Quote
"We must respect our tradition. The girl must be taught how to take care of herself hygienically,"
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/36/193.html

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Dr. Ahmadu, a post-doctoral fellow at the University of Chicago...has argued that the critics of the procedure exaggerate the medical dangers, misunderstand the effect on sexual pleasure, and mistakenly view the removal of parts of the clitoris as a practice that oppresses women.
Quote
"For the National Assembly to legislate on female circumcision is to criminalise our custom", writes Nowa Omoigui.
Quote
What is removed is the prepuce - a small piece of the sheath that extends from the clitoris. That sheath has no sexual function.
Quote
there is absolutely no evidence that maternal and child mortality in Nigeria is increased because of properly performed [female] circumcision
Quote
Who advised the World Health Organization to coin the phrase "[female genital] mutilation"? Whoever did was cynically manipulating language. We "mutilate" the umbilical cord by cutting it off at birth and arbitrarily deciding how long the navel should be. We "mutilate" our bodies with ear rings, tongue rings, tatoos, nose jobs etc... We "keep" biologically excretory products like nails and hair - and use them for beautification - and do so differently, I might add, depending on the cultural environment. Some western women (in the US) begin to shave their leg hair at age 10. Has anyone else in the world attacked them for mutilating what God put there for a reason? We use traditional marks for medicinal and symbolic purposes.... Why is that not 'mutilation' of the skin? Why not ban it?
Note how similar his arguments are to the ones used right here by those who refuse to accept that male circumcision is worth of the word 'mutilation'.
Nowa Omoigui is a medical doctor in South Carolina, USA.

Federal law prohibiting FGM was enacted in 1996. Seventeen states enacted similar laws between 1994 and 2006. Although I oppose federal legislation in areas like this, I feel that it is high time for MGM to be treated the same way; that's why I support the CA law and would support any other law manning mutilation of children.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 09:45:17 PM by zahc »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #109 on: November 14, 2010, 09:47:27 PM »
The motivations are exactly the same...desire to control and mutilate the helpless to satisfy some kind of bizarre reptillian-brain urges in the empowered adults, along with a coping mechanism of their own mutilation and a desire to continue the practice so that part of the population isn't handicapped compared to the other

lol  thats funny  i don't care who you are!  you didn't read the guys stories did ya? [popcorn]
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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BridgeRunner

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #110 on: November 14, 2010, 10:07:05 PM »
none of the guys did it for cosmetic reasons

Hence the first line of my post. 

I find your argument that "guys are funny about sharp things" and therefore should have pieces of their genitals removed in infancy spurious.  Perhaps guys are "funny about sharp things" in the genital area because a piece of it was cut off way back when in pre-verbal memory?

cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #112 on: November 14, 2010, 10:13:52 PM »
I find your argument that "guys are funny about sharp things" and therefore should have pieces of their genitals removed in infancy spurious.  Perhaps guys are "funny about sharp things" in the genital area because a piece of it was cut off way back when in pre-verbal memory?

i was referencing the trauma the adults felt was psychological  and due to not liking sharp things near the family jewels
i was referring to the guys who never got snipped so what imaginary memories are you referring to?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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zahc

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #113 on: November 14, 2010, 10:15:33 PM »
Quote
i was referencing the trauma the adults felt was psychological  and due to not liking sharp things near the family jewels

The trauma infants feel doesn't matter, because infants aren't really people and besides, they are small and can't do anything about it anyway.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #114 on: November 14, 2010, 10:19:12 PM »
do share with us your experiences with infant trauma.i've seen a lil  its quite different from adults. thats a real advantage with a host of medical procedures
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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BridgeRunner

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #115 on: November 14, 2010, 10:33:54 PM »
i was referencing the trauma the adults felt was psychological  and due to not liking sharp things near the family jewels
i was referring to the guys who never got snipped so what imaginary memories are you referring to?

First, your use of the word "guys" did not appear to be modified by "who had circumcision performed in adulthood."  Perhaps I missed that?

Second,  Your general use of the word "guys" seemed to reference a general cultural standard that seems to be pervasive.  If the majority of men in a culture are irrationally touchy about sharp objects in the crotch area, perhaps this is derived from the fact that male children typically have their genitals mutilated as neonates?

Third, these guys you reference ought to get over it.  If I get breast cancer and have to have a boob removed, damn straight I will be traumatized.  Nonetheless, I'm quite glad to have it now.  Ditto any other disease-vulnerable body part.  I don't know anyone who really enjoys genital surgery, yet about half the mothers I know have experienced genital trauma and reparative procedures.  Somehow we survive it.  "We're squeamish" is  pretty sorry reason for choosing to inflict elective genital surgery on infants. 

As for infant trauma, very little is known.  Most of the "facts" are pure invention and there is not a whole lot of real research. 

White Horseradish

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #116 on: November 14, 2010, 11:03:35 PM »
  why would you take away another parents right to chose? for their kids?
Why do you want to take away the kids' right to choose for themselves?

none of the guys did it for cosmetic reasons

or this guy
http://www.circinfo.net/men_circumcised_as_adults_tell_it_as_it_is.html

Most people in that link are either of the "I thought it looks better/I like it this way" variety, which are, indeed, cosmetic reasons. They had the opportunity to choose, they chose, good for them. We are talking about the choice being made for you.

A few guys there are of the "I had a problem" kind. That is really not relevant to what we are talking about either.

And finally  there are the ones that found it hard to stay clean. All I can say there is "yuck".

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #117 on: November 14, 2010, 11:38:34 PM »
Why do you want to take away the kids' right to choose for themselves?


because they are kids.  its just the earliest form of the jackboot on their throat.  they get to tell their therapist about it later if need be.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

White Horseradish

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #118 on: November 14, 2010, 11:51:38 PM »
Why do you want to take away the kids' right to choose for themselves?

because they are kids.  its just the earliest form of the jackboot on their throat.  they get to tell their therapist about it later if need be.
My parents thought different. Perhaps that is why I have never needed a therapist.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

Robert A Heinlein

MicroBalrog

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #119 on: November 15, 2010, 03:06:47 AM »
Quote
If the majority of men in a culture are irrationally touchy about sharp objects in the crotch area,

I don't know, being touchy about sharp objects in the sensistive areas of my body seems rational to me.
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280plus

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #120 on: November 15, 2010, 06:43:39 AM »
For the record I'm pretty much touchy about sharp instruments near any part of my body not just "there".  ;)

I guess circumcision considered by some as preventative. Past experience has taught that things can happen and it's much less traumatic to do it at childbirth than to have to suffer through the procedure as an adult. For one thing the wound is much smaller and probably heals quicker without the whole pesky erection thing going on. Because from what I hear the erection part is the most painful of the whole thing and the guy I talked to said he had a little can of spray freeze stuff to uh, nip said erection(s) in the bud.

Who's to say the tribal ritual didn't develop from the tribe's experience with the same issues of infection so that the ritual served the function of encouraging the procedure? In many cases it symbolized the male coming of age. I'll never forget the 16' stone phallus a friend of mine found in a field right here in CT. Anatomically perfect down to the veins. Circumcised.

I'll also never forget the day he handed it to one of the older ladies at a dig. She grabs it by the head, cradles it in both hands, looks at it and says , "Oh." Then a split second later she realizes what it is and says "OHHH!!" The lulz were epic.  =D
 

Avoid cliches like the plague!

MicroBalrog

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #121 on: November 15, 2010, 09:00:36 AM »
http://www.timesoftheinternet.com/143092.html

Anybody remember this being brought up on this forum?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Tallpine

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #122 on: November 15, 2010, 10:43:16 AM »
do share with us your experiences with infant trauma.i've seen a lil  its quite different from adults. thats a real advantage with a host of medical procedures

Well, just look at how weird I turned out ...  =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #123 on: November 15, 2010, 12:05:19 PM »
Well, just look at how weird I turned out ...  =D

touche!
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

roo_ster

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Re: Finally, some common sense being demonstrated in Kali...
« Reply #124 on: November 15, 2010, 12:28:54 PM »
Why do you want to take away the kids' right to choose for themselves?


because they are kids.  its just the earliest form of the jackboot on their throat.  they get to tell their therapist about it later if need be.

Finally, we have the origins of this fellow (on the left):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton