A stopped clock is right twice a day

[makattak]

And Al Gore is right less often than that.

He gets this right, though:

http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE6AL0YT20101122?sp=true

U.S. corn ethanol "was not a good policy"-Gore

He even explains, correctly, why it was pushed (interest group politics and the importance of Iowa to the presidential primaries.)

Here's the most reprehensible part of this whole ethanol debacle:

The U.S. ethanol industry will consume about 41 percent of the U.S. corn crop this year, or 15 percent of the global corn crop, according to Goldman Sachs analysts.

41%? FOURTY ONE PERCENT!!?!??!?!?

That's unconscionable that we waste that much food.

Oh, on a related note:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/oct/25/impending-global-food-crisis

Rising food prices and shortages could cause instability in many countries as the cost of staple foods and vegetables reached their highest levels in two years, with scientists predicting further widespread droughts and floods.

Always love it when politicians won't care about the consequences of their actions.

[Ben]

It should be noted that the 41% is not all corn for human consumption, in fact likely a small percentage of it is. But the result is the same -- if it's going to fuel instead of cattle, we still pay increased food prices based on the increased feed prices.

I'm not sure I buy the 2nd and 3rd gen stuff. You still need the land to grow your alternate cellulose, and every acre of land set aside for that is an acre less of food growing land. I can't believe there's enough cellulose-based "waste" to fuel (pardon the pun) a national ethanol industry.

My original theory regarding ethanol is much the same as my solar theory. They are both good alternate energies for individual or local use (e.g., "getting off the grid"), but they are crappy alternatives for large, commercial distribution infrastructures.

[makattak]

It should be noted that the 41% is not all corn for human consumption, in fact likely a small percentage of it is. But the result is the same -- if it's going to fuel instead of cattle, we still pay increased food prices based on the increased feed prices.

I'm not sure I buy the 2nd and 3rd gen stuff. You still need the land to grow your alternate cellulose, and every acre of land set aside for that is an acre less of food growing land. I can't believe there's enough cellulose-based "waste" to fuel (pardon the pun) a national ethanol industry.

My original theory regarding ethanol is much the same as my solar theory. They are both good alternate energies for individual or local use (e.g., "getting off the grid"), but they are crappy alternatives for large, commercial distribution infrastructures.

Good point on the second and third generation ethanol.

Let me state I'm not endorsing his view on that. Only that he's right about how stupid corn ethanol is.

Other biomass is less stupid for ethanol.

[Ben]

Let me state I'm not endorsing his view on that.

I knew you weren't. :)

[TechMan]

Only 1% of the corn produced is for direct human consumption.  The other 99% is field corn, but that does have a multitude of uses that impacts our daily lives:

Field corn has an abundance of uses and accounts for nearly 99 percent of all corn grown in the United States. This type of corn is harvested for use as animal feed, and nearly all domestic species have corn in their diets due to this. Uses in the home include cooking oils, corn syrup and corn meals. Maltodextrin, dextrose, sorbitol, corn starch and high-fructose corn syrup are found in many products from breads to toothpastes. Corn is also utilized in the manufacturing of everyday items such as batteries, medicines, paper and adhesives. Items such as textiles and carpets are also utilizing corn.
Read more: Sweet Corn Vs. Field Corn | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_6328363_sweet-corn-vs_-field-corn.html#ixzz161uFSPyN

But with 41% going to ethanol, I would expect prices for other things to go up as the supply of field corn goes down.
Just my $0.02.

[HankB]

It must be at least 15-20 years ago that Minnesota began requiring ethanol to be added to gas during the winter months. All the pundits and experts claimed that it would only cause a 3% mileage penalty, but my own experience (and those of colleagues at work) indicated the fuel economy penalty was at least 3 to 5 times greater.

Then why do it?

Well, OF COURSE it was ONLY a coincidence that many of the legislators who pushed the gas-dilution requirement though happened to be recipients of campaign contributions from Archer-Daniels Midland, which just happened to be one of the biggest (perhaps the biggest at that time?) producers of fuel ethanol . . . 

[Waitone]

Ethanol as a filler for gas was a looser from day one, was known to be a looser, but was implemented in any case.  Now we learn of the impact on food production and people are surprised.  At some point Good and Plenty Water advocates will start thumping tubs over the extravagant waste of water in the production of ethanol and once again some idiot will express shock.  Stupidity is as universal as hydrogen.  Seems to be a little more concentrated in and around government.

[Tallpine]

Ethanol in gasoline is a corny joke 

[sanglant]

i don't know about the particulars involved with cleaning out a tanker. but a system where people collect grass clippings,(mainly commercial mowers) and sell them to gas stations which sell them to fuel producers, along with saving the scrap from agricultural growing,(the econazis are against such things because it requires more chemical fertilizers.) and maybe throw in legalized pot,(quite a bit of scrap left ) and it wouldn't have any where near the impact on food prices as the current cluster...

but having government meddling make sense might be dangerous.

[Strings]

Ok, somebody needs to PUNish Tallpine...

[KD5NRH]

Other biomass is less stupid for ethanol.

How many hundreds of thousands of waste acres (Johnson grass, kudzu, etc.) could be made profitable?  I know of several places around here where you could harvest a few tons of Johnson grass every couple of months, with no other effort whatsoever.

[makattak]

How many hundreds of thousands of waste acres (Johnson grass, kudzu, etc.) could be made profitable?  I know of several places around here where you could harvest a few tons of Johnson grass every couple of months, with no other effort whatsoever.

My guess is zero without government subsidies:

http://www.slate.com/id/2122961/

In addition to their findings on corn, they determined that making ethanol from switch grass requires 50 percent more fossil energy than the ethanol yields, wood biomass 57 percent more, and sunflowers 118 percent more. The best yield comes from soybeans, but they, too, are a net loser, requiring 27 percent more fossil energy than the biodiesel fuel produced. In other words, more ethanol production will increase America's total energy consumption, not decrease it.

It takes more energy to make any type of ethanol than the ethanol produces.

[sanglant]

you would need to run the stills on ethanol. for that matter you could build ethanol based generators to take some more oil/coal out of the picture.  <-- just so everyone knows my posts in this thread are little more then jokes.

[charby]

I think if they go to something alternative, cost effective and sustainable it will be bio-diesel or butanol from oil producing algae or plants.

[CNYCacher]

It takes more energy to make any type of ethanol than the ethanol produces.

I think sugar cane is the one exception to this, but there is some kind of gov reg stopping it.

Been a while since I looked into this stuff

[charby]

I think sugar cane is the one exception to this, but there is some kind of gov reg stopping it.

Been a while since I looked into this stuff

Input costs on growing sugar cane is crazy expensive.

[seeker_two]

Brazil uses sugar beets for their ethanol....much less expensive to produce and refine....


...but, ethanol in general is a bad idea for a gasoline economy...esp. one where engines are becoming more efficient and cleaner-burning.

Now, focusing on more efficient commercial-aircraft engines would be a far greater return...either that, or let TSA run the airline industry into the ground....

[Tallpine]

How many hundreds of thousands of waste acres (Johnson grass, kudzu, etc.) could be made profitable?  I know of several places around here where you could harvest a few tons of Johnson grass every couple of months, with no other effort whatsoever.

Hemp 

 

[longeyes]

Come now, we all know that bull**** is the coming thing, don't we?  There's so much of it, and it's so cheap.

[charby]

Come now, we all know that bull**** is the coming thing, don't we?  There's so much of it, and it's so cheap.

too bad they can't use that BS as fertilizer.

[KD5NRH]

It takes more energy to make any type of ethanol than the ethanol produces.

You can use much less portable and/or practical sources to generate that energy, though; burning certain types of waste materials, (obviously with proper filtration) solar thermal collection, etc.  Neither of those is something you can do (practically) in a car, and neither is likely to produce enough energy on-the-spot to get a car down the road, but use them to produce ethanol and you've got something you can drive on.

[charby]

You can use much less portable and/or practical sources to generate that energy, though; burning certain types of waste materials, (obviously with proper filtration) solar thermal collection, etc.  Neither of those is something you can do (practically) in a car, and neither is likely to produce enough energy on-the-spot to get a car down the road, but use them to produce ethanol and you've got something you can drive on.

or to generate electricity for urban electric cars.