who knows the score on EMP's Man made &/or natural?

[gunsmith]

I'm having an ongoing debate with a friend and I think I'm right, but I need data. He claims an EMP attack would cause a carrington (not sure if its K or C ) which he says would only affect those living near a grid or on the grid meaning his car, pc etc would keep working because we are way off grid no power lines or telephone lines.

 I say "it depends"  we may be far enough out of the way here in northern NV to escape a west coast attack but no pc would be able to connect anyway because the satellites ( for us ) would be useless as well as those on cable and if we were in the blast zone even though we are far from the grid the car wouldn't work.

We have small portable gens I think those will work as long as we have fuel ... correct?

I've seen reports that claim we are due for solar flares in late 2012 early 2013.
If they are as bad as its been reported than we may have our answers the hard way.

[Nick1911]

It all depends on proximity to the blast.

The electromagnetic flux drops off with distance, squared.

Yes, the grid will pick up an EMF wave like a big antennae.  That said, keep in mind that high voltage transients are common on the grid, it gets smoked with lightning all the time.  The bits and pieces that actually transform/transmit power are up for it, in my opinion.

Really, the susceptible things are the IC's with their miniaturized transistors.  Particularly mosfets.  If a device like this is close enough, and has enough pusdo-antennae's coming off it (A PC with a mouse plugged in, etc), then yea, it's cooked.  But, in my opinion grid-connected-ness isn't going to have much, if any, effect.  (Would a large transient that is that short even make it through a transformer?  I don't think so, too much magnetic reluctance and too short of a pulse.)

As far as generators go, most all small engines produced since the 80's use electronics in the magneto to create spark.  Unless you're running something old, or diesel, don't be so sure it will run.

Further, the generator heads on many of these designs use a solid state voltage regulator, which contains transistors.

[gunsmith]

oh, I thought only old diesels would run- a modern diesel gen would work? thats good to know because ranchers around here usually have a truck fill up their large tanks so theres a good chance some fuel will be around - what about modern diesel cars/trucks I thought they have to many electronics.

Not sure what a mosfets is, if you have a spare voltage regulator could you simply swap it out?

[MicroBalrog]

Wouldn't the hull of a vehicle protect to an extent?

[cosine]

oh, I thought only old diesels would run- a modern diesel gen would work? thats good to know because ranchers around here usually have a truck fill up their large tanks so theres a good chance some fuel will be around - what about modern diesel cars/trucks I thought they have to many electronics.

Not sure what a mosfets is, if you have a spare voltage regulator could you simply swap it out?

MOSFET indicates the type of transistor (as opposed to BJTs, a different type of transistor) used in creating these integrated circuit.

As for just swapping out the voltage regulator for a spare I think that would still depend on the size and proximity of the EMP. There are copper PCB board traces and leads on the components in the spare voltage regulator which will act as antennae picking up enough energy from the EMP blast to damage the ICs even if the spare is not connected to anything.

[MillCreek]

Back in the day, wasn't it the Soviet plan to do a couple of high-altitude bursts to wipe out most of the grid from EMP? I thought I recall seeing a map showing how just a couple of bursts, strategically located, would impact a major portion of the electricity grid.

[Jim147]

Back in the day, wasn't it the Soviet plan to do a couple of high-altitude bursts to wipe out most of the grid from EMP? I thought I recall seeing a map showing how just a couple of bursts, strategically located, would impact a major portion of the electricity grid.

Well, what would it really take? A tree limb took out the whole Northeast a few years back.

Keep the spare gen head in your hardened bunker.

For the diesels you would need mechanical injectors and glow plugs ran off a switch not a controller.

We won't know for sure until it happens. We have become so dependent on transistors that some manufactures have been using boards in things that have no need for them but people have come to expect them.

jim

[gunsmith]

"hardened bunker" thats another question, what do you need to keep your vehicles & electronics safe from EMP? like fer instance, you have a metal building , not on the grid way out in the middle of nowhere in a very unpopulated area-is that good enough?
One mechanic I know says you need a "faraday cage" , my friend says a lead lined building is the only way.  What if you build yourself a garage thats half way in the side of a hill?

[RoadKingLarry]

MOSFET = Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistor.


As for an EMP wiping out modern civilization that is pretty much Scifi hokum. Sure if you're close enough to the source there will be damage but as with any kind of radiation, time, distance and shielding are your friends.
Of course .mil stuff is hardened agaisnt EMP and in theory most of the electrical distribution grid is supposed to be along with redundant back ups.

If the bad guys wanted to disrupt us with an EMP burst it would be targeted to major cities and with a airburst nuke big enough to nock out electronics with the EMP for any significant distance your ipod not working will be the least of your worries.

[gunsmith]

ok, but what about mother nature? the oft described carrington effect?
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/06may_carringtonflare/

[RevDisk]

Sigh.  Short version, EMP is overhyped.  If it was easy and effective, it'd be used by now. 

We have metric tons of electromagnetic interfence at any given time.  Everything electronic gives off some EMI.  Transformers, power lines, etc give off tons.  To take out the US, you'd need a couple dozen tuned nukes.  Even then, you'd just fry things that didn't properly ground.  Even in WWII, which had theoretically more robust (against EMI/EMP) electronics, stuff still fried.  It'd be fairly hit or miss.  Your alarm clock might be beautifully constructed and survive without a hitch.  Your PC might fry itself.  All depends.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/car-lightning


I do love folks that claim the satellites are all going to be killed by EMP "cuz there ain't no air!!!!11!".  Yes, because they don't get hit by cosmic radiation and solar flares all day long. 


A successful EMP attack would cause a lot of damage.  But of limited scope.  You'd make some line crews pissed as hell, and insurance companies would be hit with a lot of small claims from improperly grounded electronics.  Interwebz, vehicles, food, etc would all be fine, with minor inconveniences all over the place. 

[AJ Dual]

The big thing with EMP besides proximity, is the size or length of the antenna that's attached to the things you want or (don't want to be) zapped.

That's why the power grid is susceptible, the lines are miles long, and set up huge voltage potentials. The movies showing cell phones and watches all dying miles and miles away from a nuke or EMP blast all stopping, not so much. The components and circuit traces are only millimeters long, and don't intercept much RF at all. Orientation to the best polarization is also at issue.

The cell tower may well go out, since it's got several hundred linear feet of metal in it, that will intercept the EMP and create a much higher potential and get things fried. OTOH, cell towers are probably designed to be lightning resistant, and isolate their components etc.

So yeah, overhyped. Maybe one single city with a close blast, or some large multi-state electrical runs overload with the hypothetical H-Bomb in orbit over CONUS, but everything, everywhere, with one single or small strike?... I doubt it.

[KD5NRH]

A successful EMP attack would cause a lot of damage.  But of limited scope.  You'd make some line crews pissed as hell, and insurance companies would be hit with a lot of small claims from improperly grounded electronics.  Interwebz, vehicles, food, etc would all be fine, with minor inconveniences all over the place.

Look at it from the perspective of the sheeple response, though; knock out a good bit of WoW infrastructure and/or iTunes bad enough to keep them down for a week or two, and you'll have a bunch of panicky fools with nothing better to do than raise hell.  Take out a major credit card processor or two and you'll play hell with commerce, and more importantly, people's confidence in credit/debit cards.

[HankB]

We have become so dependent on transistors that some manufactures have been using boards in things that have no need for them but people have come to expect them.

When microprocessors became the new buzzword, marketing decided one of our new products HAD to contain a microprocessor.

It didn't need one, nor would it benefit from one, but Marketing insisted.

So the lab duly built the device, demonstrated it, and Marketing was happy - tickled pink with the performance, in fact. At which point the VP of Marketing said "See - I TOLD you the device needed microprocessor control!"

The project manager said "Hold on a minute - you never said anything about microprocessor control - you only required we include a microprocessor in the device."

At which point the project manager reached around the back, opened a little drawer, and pulled out a microprocessor - still in the package.  "See - we included one!" 

Much hilarity ensued.

[Brad Johnson]

If it was easy and effective, it'd be used by now. 

What makes you think it isn't? (at least in limited and very specific applications)

Brad

[Waitone]

Here ya go!  More than you most likely want to read.  I have a few questions about the physics of an event but I find the consequences section to be interesting.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/11/EMP-Attacks-What-the-US-Must-Do-Now

[sanglant]

Wouldn't the hull of a vehicle protect to an extent?

my memory is busted, but i think it needs to be grounded. faraday.

[Brad Johnson]

When microprocessors became the new buzzword, marketing decided one of our new products HAD to contain a microprocessor.

It didn't need one, nor would it benefit from one, but Marketing insisted.

So the lab duly built the device, demonstrated it, and Marketing was happy - tickled pink with the performance, in fact. At which point the VP of Marketing said "See - I TOLD you the device needed microprocessor control!"

The project manager said "Hold on a minute - you never said anything about microprocessor control - you only required we include a microprocessor in the device."

At which point the project manager reached around the back, opened a little drawer, and pulled out a microprocessor - still in the package.  "See - we included one!" 

Much hilarity ensued.

Those are the same people who keep the marketing phrase "free refills for life" alive.... because they fall for it.

At leas the "Hi Def" craze has calmed down a bit.  At one point I wouldn't have been surprised to see it (in big, explosion-ized, as-seen-on-TV letters of course) on a roll of toilet paper.

Brad

[Physics]

Actually, EMP is pretty easy to create at a local level.  No, I'm not going to talk about it on a public forum.  As for large scale EMP, I worry not.  Anything that we really want to keep safe should be hardened through silicon on insulator or silicon on sapphire techniques.  I'm pretty sure the military uses this, and if the power industry isn't, they're retarded. 

Also, antenna length isn't the major factor.  It's resonant lengths.  Just because an antenna is 1 billion meters long, doesn't mean it's going to be a good receiver.  It's wavelength dependent.  Quarter wave dipole antennas and all that.  My research is actually closely related to antenna theory at the nanoscale. 

[RevDisk]

What makes you think it isn't? (at least in limited and very specific applications)

Brad

I'm aware of a number of usages within the last few years, actually.  It has been used in specific and narrow applications.

[Fly320s]

I'm aware of a number of usages within the last few years, actually.  It has been used in specific and narrow applications.

Since you won't/can't provide details, are the any news reports available?

[AJ Dual]

Actually, EMP is pretty easy to create at a local level.  No, I'm not going to talk about it on a public forum.  As for large scale EMP, I worry not.  Anything that we really want to keep safe should be hardened through silicon on insulator or silicon on sapphire techniques.  I'm pretty sure the military uses this, and if the power industry isn't, they're retarded. 

Also, antenna length isn't the major factor.  It's resonant lengths.  Just because an antenna is 1 billion meters long, doesn't mean it's going to be a good receiver.  It's wavelength dependent.  Quarter wave dipole antennas and all that.  My research is actually closely related to antenna theory at the nanoscale. 

IIRC it was a highly charged coil crushed/compressed by a conventional explosive. (pumped flux compressor?)

I think there's another design that works on the MHD principle, using a conventional explosive to shoot plasma/gas through the coils to generate EMP. Kind of like the Hunt For Red October drive in reverse. (For the sub it was charge the coils and make a fluid/gas move, instead have a moving gas, the explosion, charge the coils...)

Then there's the devices that are like klystrons and magnetrons on steroids.

Of course, "everybody knows how to make a nuclear bomb too", but doing it right, as always, the devil is in the details.

[Physics]

IIRC it was a highly charged coil crushed/compressed by a conventional explosive. (pumped flux compressor?)

I think there's another design that works on the MHD principle, using a conventional explosive to shoot plasma/gas through the coils to generate EMP. Kind of like the Hunt For Red October drive in reverse. (For the sub it was charge the coils and make a fluid/gas move, instead have a moving gas, the explosion, charge the coils...)

Then there's the devices that are like klystrons and magnetrons on steroids.

Of course, "everybody knows how to make a nuclear bomb too", but doing it right, as always, the devil is in the details.

Let's just say my boss has fried some stuff.

[tyme]

FAS has some of cool stuff but it's mostly in PDF format.

google docs cache: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:emEp1WTrYqkJ:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32544.pdf

pdf: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32544.pdf

[gunsmith]

more homework. ... sigh ... 

what about emp's from solar flares?

ok, but what about mother nature? the oft described carrington effect?
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/06may_carringtonflare/