Author Topic: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors  (Read 10269 times)

gunsmith

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41magsnub

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2011, 07:14:50 PM »
Where can this thread go?  The prochoice folks will say this is wrong and awful.  The prolife folks will try to lump all abortion doctors into the same category as this.

Perd Hapley

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2011, 07:17:15 PM »
The prolife folks will try to lump all abortion doctors into the same category as this.

Try?
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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2011, 07:33:13 PM »
Where can this thread go?  The prochoice folks will say this is wrong and awful.  The prolife folks will try to lump all abortion doctors into the same category as this.

+1. Horrifing terrible and very sad, but not really a subject that can stay kosher around here.
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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2011, 08:24:28 PM »
The parts about untrained folks practicing medicine with unsterilized equipment is frightening, but so is the ease with which certain terms like "viable" and "murder" are tossed around in reference to an allegedly 6-month-old foetus.  The fact is that pro-lifers would declare all embryos and foetuses "viable" if they could, and similarly any abortion would be "murder".  The fact that PA apparently has a statute which forbids abortion after 24 months creates legal facts, certainly, but it does not change any actual facts about whether a foetus is viable.

The conditions at his "clinic" may have been squalid, and the keeping of fetuses and body parts frightening, but the only facts of importance I can see are 1) late-term (nominally illegal) abortions; 2) the lack of medical knowledge (I hesitate to say proper medical licensing since so many libertarians object in theory to professional licensing) of the "doctor" and "anesthesiologist"; and 3) the lack of sterilization of equipment.

What about responsibility of the patients?  The two dead patients who are referenced were both adults (one 22, the other 41).  What about their responsibility to avoid insane doctors?  The article strongly implies that just about everyone who visited this "doctor" knew what was going on.  How surprised can any of his patients have been that a doc performing illegal abortions may not have had the necessary medical training or may have taken shortcuts with safety and employee qualifications?

All the rest of it is just emotionally-laden rhetoric designed to further inflame an already inflammatory case by conjuring up pictures of Frankenstein's lab, or by appealing to pro-lifers.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2011, 09:05:14 PM »
most interesting "defense" of what happened  :facepalm: [barf]

State regulators ignored complaints about Gosnell and the 46 lawsuits filed against him, and made just five annual inspections, most satisfactory, since the clinic opened in 1979, authorities said. The inspections stopped completely in 1993 because of what prosecutors said was the pro-abortion rights attitude that set in after Democratic Gov. Robert Casey, an abortion foe, left office.

Williams accused state Health Department officials of "utter disregard" for the safety of women undergoing abortion, and said the testimony of agency officials "enraged" the grand jury. But he said he could find no criminal offenses with which they could be charged, in part because too much time has elapsed.

"These officials were far more protective of themselves when they testified before the grand jury. Even (Health Department) lawyers, including the chief counsel, brought private attorneys with them - presumably at government expense," the report said.
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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2011, 09:06:15 PM »


All the rest of it is just emotionally-laden rhetoric designed to further inflame an already inflammatory case by conjuring up pictures of Frankenstein's lab, or by appealing to pro-lifers.
Quote
"There were jars, lining shelves, with severed feet that he kept for no medical purpose."
apparently, serial killers really do keep trophies, not just the ones on "Dexter"

Quote
Prosecutors said Gosnell instead delivered many of the babies alive.

He "induced labor, forced the live birth of viable babies in the sixth, seventh, eighth month of pregnancy and then killed those babies by cutting into the back of the neck with scissors and severing their spinal cord,"

Quote
Few if any of the sedated patients knew their babies had been delivered alive and then killed, prosecutors said. Many were first-time mothers who were told they were 24 weeks pregnant, even if they were much further along, authorities said.


I have a feeling this ( kind of stuff ) is rampant, I had no idea you could charge that much money-no wonder planned parenthood has so much power, they're freaking wealthy.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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gunsmith

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Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2011, 09:12:36 PM »
Quote from: gunsmith link=topic=27880.msg545586#msg545586


I have a feeling this ( kind of stuff ) is rampant, I had no idea you could charge that much money-no wonder planned parenthood has so much power, they're freaking wealthy.


Please don't compare PP with this guy. They provide many more services then just abortions, as well as finacial aid for their patients.
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gunsmith

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2011, 09:23:28 PM »
Please don't compare PP with this guy. They provide many more services then just abortions, as well as finacial aid for their patients.

I'm not, I just didn't realize you could charge that much ( over a thousand ) for an abortion, & PP does do plenty of them so they have big bucks and the influence that comes with being wealthy.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

sanglant

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2011, 09:30:33 PM »
don't forget all the donations, on both sides. =|

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2011, 09:34:58 PM »
'm not, I just didn't realize you could charge that much ( over a thousand ) for an abortion, & PP does do plenty of them so they have big bucks and the influence that comes with being wealthy.

you did/are

they don't

how many do they do?

and your train of logic has left the tracks with
" PP does do plenty of them so they have big bucks"

and i'm not a pp fan by any means
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2011, 09:43:03 PM »
I'm not, I just didn't realize you could charge that much ( over a thousand ) for an abortion, & PP does do plenty of them so they have big bucks and the influence that comes with being wealthy.

Actually, I don't think they do charge that much. Over a grand sounds like cost for illigal abortions, not legal ones. For an abortion in timely fashion, ie, as soon as you figure out your pregnet, its a really quick simple procedure.

I'll admit, I do question the wisdom of the women that would go to a Dr. like that, and one who didn't go do it before (long before) 24 weeks. Its not rocket science to figure out your pregnet.
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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2011, 11:28:35 PM »
Quote
I have a feeling this ( kind of stuff ) is rampant, I had no idea you could charge that much money-no wonder planned parenthood has so much power, they're freaking wealthy.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2011, 11:36:39 PM »
The fact is that pro-lifers would declare all embryos and foetuses "viable" if they could, and similarly any abortion would be "murder".

The opposite is true. Pro-lifers tend to push the point of viability back to some point well after birth. The usual anti-abortion view is that viability is not necessary to consider abortion as murder. That only viable fetuses have a right to live is a pro-abortion argument.
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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 10:59:34 AM »
Big hairy eyeball is watching.
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MechAg94

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 11:24:11 AM »
The opposite is true. Pro-lifers tend to push the point of viability back to some point well after birth. The usual anti-abortion view is that viability is not necessary to consider abortion as murder. That only viable fetuses have a right to live is a pro-abortion argument.
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 12:42:36 PM »
You know, I find an interesting dichotomy in the pro-life/pro-choice argument. 

When a child is wanted, we will spare absolutely no expense, and do everything we possibly can in order to try to save the life of that child.  We're to the point now that we can have babies that survive being born at 21-22 weeks.  Do those children face a huge uphill battle, and is it ridiculously expensive to make sure those children survive?  Absolutely.  Yet we don't see much argument for just allowing those children to die.  So to answer the viability question, I believe that this puts the lower limit at about 21-22 weeks.  These are recorded cases, in fact the record for the youngest child to survive is at 21 weeks 5 days, James Elgin Gill, born in 1987 in Canada. 

Yet when a child is not wanted, some of the pro-choice folks argue that up until the moment the child is born, it should be legal to terminate the pregnancy.  This is clearly the extreme, but is an argument I have personally heard made by pro-choice folks.  Actually, that's not truly the extreme.  I have occasionally heard the argument (again, personally, first-hand) that a baby isn't really "viable" even after it is born, as it is unable to care or feed itself.  It is a very rare argument, true, but it is an argument that I have personally heard made, and was made to attempt to justify partial birth abortions.

So I guess the question I pose is this.  (I tend to be a moral absolutist, believing that with very few, very rare exceptions, there is a moral *right* and a moral *wrong*.) Which viewpoint is correct?  Are children a priceless asset, deserving any and every expenditure necessary to ensure their survival, or are children nothing more than biological material, fit to be disposed of as the mother sees fit until they are born?

And Mech, I think Fistful meant to type that pro-choicers tend to push the point of viability back, not pro-lifers.

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2011, 01:35:35 PM »
I think you'll find that with the pro-choice movement (the ideologues thereof, that is) 'viability' is seen as a side-issue to the actual question. The radical pro-choicer will argue that the woman has the right to determine whether she'll give birth to a baby, and if the foetus/baby needs to be killed for that, well, so be it. The radical pro-lifer will argue that the child has a right to live as soon as it is conceived, even if it's not viable outside the womb. Viability is only a way for society to find a 'compromise' between the two irreconcilable viewpoints.
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CNYCacher

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2011, 01:47:24 PM »
And Mech, I think Fistful meant to type that pro-choicers tend to push the point of viability back, not pro-lifers.

I think it makes perfect sense just as he wrote it.  I suggest reading it again.
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MechAg94

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 02:03:25 PM »
I think it makes perfect sense just as he wrote it.  I suggest reading it again.

Okay.  I haven't heard that argument before that I know of so I was looking for some clarification.  
Quote
Pro-lifers tend to push the point of viability back to some point well after birth.
What does "the point of viability" mean in this context?  Maybe that is where I am misunderstanding.  

« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 03:01:24 PM by MechAg94 »
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CNYCacher

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 03:16:17 PM »
Okay.  I haven't heard that said before so I was looking for some clarification.
And I was merely letting AmbulanceDriver know that I think Fistful did not mistype his own thoughts.

What does "the point of viability" mean in this context?  Maybe that is where I am misunderstanding. 

It means different things to different people.  In general it's the point where a baby is expected to survive.

One argument against late-term abortion is that some babies are being killed in the womb who could survive outside the womb if they were merely allowed to be fully born instead of killed.  Since the baby is "viable" at this point, any harm it is doing to the mother (which is the only excuse for having an abortion) could be relieved by a live birth + adoption.  The viability of late-term fetuses may be the reasoning behind late-term abortions being illegal.

Thyme took this argument and extended it to claim that if they could, anti-abortionists would claim all fetuses are "viable" back to conception as an argument for making all abortions illegal.

Fistful refuted this claim and claimed that anti-abortionists actually do the opposite.  Anti-abortionists make no claim that "viability" is the test for whether an abortion is morally justified.  They even go so far as to claim that true viability does not come until some time after birth.   After all, a baby is dependent upon adults to stay alive long after it leaves the womb.
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MechAg94

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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 03:30:22 PM »
Okay.  That last part is where I got lost.  I was trying to figure out what Pro-Life group was okay with killing living babies.  I guess I have heard that argument, but wasn't tying it to this discussion.  Sometimes I sympathize with my math teachers about them wanting to see the steps I took written out instead of just writing down the answer. 

To me the idea of delivering a living baby and killing it is certainly murder, but I can see why the legal language for that can be difficult if late term abortions are legal.  That is one reason I dislike them.
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Re: West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2011, 06:09:16 PM »
 I have a first edition copy of M Sangers "Women And The New Race" Sanger was the founder of planned parenthood.
 In her opinion there were to many "brown skinned people" living in the USA so both abortion and infanticide should be legal ( so we could have a "pure" race in the USA ) .

 I was talking to a guy who is "pro choice" he was seriously telling me that infanticide
 should be a legal option ( a choice) because babies were not really fully developed humans.

 what happened in Philly is an example of the founder of planned parent hoods philosophy.
       You can read it for yourself, if you don't believe me by all means please read her book(s)
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