West Philadelphia abortion doctor killed 7 babies with scissors

[Jamisjockey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy#Initiation (Mildly NSFW, picture of naked pregnant woman shows nipple)

I'm a dirty rotten drunken atheist heathen and I don't think it can be proven otherwise that life doesn't begin at conception.  JIMHO, but it's murder at any stage of the pregnancy.

[Perd Hapley]

Fistful refuted this claim and claimed that anti-abortionists actually do the opposite.  Anti-abortionists make no claim that "viability" is the test for whether an abortion is morally justified.  They even go so far as to claim that true viability does not come until some time after birth.   After all, a baby is dependent upon adults to stay alive long after it leaves the womb.

Yes. It is one way of casting doubt on the criterion of viability.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I'm a dirty rotten drunken atheist heathen


you said that like its a bad thing...

[BlueStarLizzard]

pro-choice and i'll say this...

I don't have an issue with making late term abortions a no no. It has nothing to do with morality or the question of wiether its alive or not. Because I don't know, and i'm not sure I care.

It comes down to safety, the complications involved and the fact that you have had the time to make that decision already. The option is there, its a time sensitive decision and a women that needs to make it, knows this.

I haven't had an abortion, don't want to have one, but I have had the possibility come up. If your having sex, you need to understand the potential consiquences. Trust me, I made my decision before I even knew one way or another.

[zxcvbob]

It's just a slippery slope from late-term abortions to postnatal abortions...  

--
"Life Begins at Forty" --Sophie Tucker

[roo_ster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy#Initiation (Mildly NSFW, picture of naked pregnant woman shows nipple)

I'm a dirty rotten drunken atheist heathen and I don't think it can be proven otherwise that life doesn't begin at conception.  JIMHO, but it's murder at any stage of the pregnancy.

Just as science may show that there is no scientific explanation for some Biblical claim or belief, science may reinforce other claims or some Biblical tenets. 

I think the 20th century scientific advances in biology, genetics, etc. objectively demonstrate that when sperm & egg meet, there is a new human.  It is at this point that the previously scientific types wax philosophical about "personhood" and the like.

Some one else wrote something to the effect of, "Don't despise me for my religious beliefs and your fidelity to science and then go off and practice voodoo on the side."

[sumpnz]

The parts about untrained folks practicing medicine with unsterilized equipment is frightening, but so is the ease with which certain terms like "viable" and "murder" are tossed around in reference to an allegedly 6-month-old foetus.  The fact is that pro-lifers would declare all embryos and foetuses "viable" if they could, and similarly any abortion would be "murder".  The fact that PA apparently has a statute which forbids abortion after 24 months creates legal facts, certainly, but it does not change any actual facts about whether a foetus is viable.

The conditions at his "clinic" may have been squalid, and the keeping of fetuses and body parts frightening, but the only facts of importance I can see are 1) late-term (nominally illegal) abortions; 2) the lack of medical knowledge (I hesitate to say proper medical licensing since so many libertarians object in theory to professional licensing) of the "doctor" and "anesthesiologist"; and 3) the lack of sterilization of equipment.

What about responsibility of the patients?  The two dead patients who are referenced were both adults (one 22, the other 41).  What about their responsibility to avoid insane doctors?  The article strongly implies that just about everyone who visited this "doctor" knew what was going on.  How surprised can any of his patients have been that a doc performing illegal abortions may not have had the necessary medical training or may have taken shortcuts with safety and employee qualifications?

All the rest of it is just emotionally-laden rhetoric designed to further inflame an already inflammatory case by conjuring up pictures of Frankenstein's lab, or by appealing to pro-lifers.

Let me just say that I disagree with that.

[roo_ster]

http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/19228.html

"...I am pro-choice but this tragedy occurred because the left violently resisted even the least regulatory oversight of even the most extreme late term abortions. The left has made abortion the highest good that trumps every other concern, and the resulting real-world policies border on the surreal.

A school nurse cannot give a child an aspirin but any stranger can legally talk a 13 year old into an abortion at almost any term with no oversight whatsoever. The FDA paternalistically denies adults medicines and procedures that the FDA judges “unsafe” but allows children to decide about invasive medical procedures? WTF?...

...The most disturbing thing I have read is the Philidelphia DAs statement:

    “I am aware that abortion is a hot-button topic,” said Williams. “But as District Attorney, my job is to carry out the law. A doctor who knowingly and systematically mistreats female patients, to the point that one of them dies in his so-called care, commits murder under the law. A doctor who cuts into the necks severing the spinal cords of living, breathing babies, who would survive with proper medical attention, is committing murder under the law.”

He’s apologizing to his deep-blue/far-left constituency for having to prosecute the guy for killing hundreds of live babies! That he feels he needs to apologize for prosecuting this case speaks volumes about the left’s extreme and irrational attitudes towards abortion regulation."

[mtnbkr]

I don't think that's an apology.  It sounds like a statement of fact.  He's pointing out exactly why this is a murder case and one he is going to pursue.

Chris

[KD5NRH]

It's just a slippery slope from late-term abortions to postnatal abortions...

Well, my problem with it is the counterproductive discriminatory nature of the way it's handled: why is it okay to kill them early on, but not once they've proven that they will be a detriment to society?

[MicroBalrog]

A school nurse cannot give a child an aspirin but any stranger can legally talk a 13 year old into an abortion at almost any term with no oversight whatsoever. The FDA paternalistically denies adults medicines and procedures that the FDA judges “unsafe” but allows children to decide about invasive medical procedures? WTF?...

A strawman argument. After all what you actually oppose is anybody getting abortions at all, 'children' or 'adults'.

[makattak]

A strawman argument. After all what you actually oppose is anybody getting abortions at all, 'children' or 'adults'.

How is that a strawman argument, is anything he said untrue?

This is an example of the sickness of the left around abortion. Yes, I am opposed to anyone having an abortion because the child being murdered has a right to life. And yes, parental notification and involvement is a step towards finally stopping our "choice" holocaust. Are you saying that first step is too far?

[MicroBalrog]

See, I used to believe in parental notification and reasonable compromise on the issue of abortion. Based on my experiences in this forum, I no longer do.

[makattak]

See, I used to believe in parental notification and reasonable compromise on the issue of abortion. Based on my experiences in this forum, I no longer do.

Why is that? Are children now better able to make life changing decisions than they were before?

[MechAg94]

What other medical procedures are allowed without parental notification?  Would a surgical clinic or hospital admit a minor for elective surgery or other medical procedure without a parent/guardian present?  I am just for being consistent on that issue. 

I used to be pretty heavily in favor of the pro-choice side, but leftists and doctor's like this tend to chase me away.  I'll never be pro-life though.  I guess I am somewhere in between like most people.

[MicroBalrog]

Why is that? Are children now better able to make life changing decisions than they were before?

Because I don't believe that a 17-year-old is a child, or a 16-year-old is a child. I oppose curfews for that age, too.
In the same vein, I oppose bans for earrings/piercings/tattoos for individuals that age, or bans on them working or driving.

[CNYCacher]

See, I used to believe in parental notification and reasonable compromise on the issue of abortion. Based on my experiences in this forum, I no longer do.

Because I don't believe that a 17-year-old is a child, or a 16-year-old is a child. I oppose curfews for that age, too.
In the same vein, I oppose bans for earrings/piercings/tattoos for individuals that age, or bans on them working or driving.

Your experience in this forum has convinced you of all that?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Your experience in this forum has convinced you of all that?

I doubt it was his experience with 16 and 17 year olds.

 

[MicroBalrog]

Your experience in this forum has convinced you of all that?

Well, you're right, I digress.

The goal of anti-abortionists is to ban abortion completely, isn't it?

On this logic, no pro-choicer should ever compromise with them, because they are never willing to accept a compromise with pro-choice forces, it's all a salami-tactic down to a ban on abortion, forever.

[makattak]

Well, you're right, I digress.

The goal of anti-abortionists is to ban abortion completely, isn't it?

On this logic, no pro-choicer should ever compromise with them, because they are never willing to accept a compromise with pro-choice forces, it's all a salami-tactic down to a ban on abortion, forever.

I was with you up to the salami-tactic because I haven't the slightest idea what that means.

I don't expect pro-abortionist to compromise, giving their goal of allowing any baby to be killed for any reason at any time (up until the point they can no longer convince themselves it isn't really a baby.) I will state quite clearly my goal is to protect all those babies. Every step I can take to protect more of them, I will.

It took a long time to reverse the injustice of slavery. It will take a long time to reverse this horror, too. I don't want compromise, I want their defeat.

[MicroBalrog]

Well, in this case we agree.

[makattak]

Well, in this case we agree.

And can you tell me what "salami-tactic" means?

[MicroBalrog]

Gradually denormalize something by introducing regulations to make it more and more difficult to get, then, when the enemy has been weakened, introduce outright ban.

[CNYCacher]

The goal of anti-abortionists is to ban abortion completely, isn't it?

I think you are over-estimating the polarization of the debate.

It's like a straw man, except I don't think you are doing it intentionally.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

^^^^^^ this! i am appalled to know that so many women use it as contraception.