More questions about storage of digital photos...

[280plus]

I understand that CD's lose their info after so many years so you have to reburn them every 5 years or so. The new questions are what about your hard drive or your floppy. Do they  deteriorate in those places as well?

Signed,
 
Curious

[mtnbkr]

Not in any reasonable length of time.  You're more likely to lose a harddrive to a crash in that length of time.

I have servers with data that hasn't been accessed in nearly 5 years, but it's still perfectly readable.  Same for floppies, I've had very old floppies that could still be read (found one the other day that was at least 6yo).  You may also consider tape if you have access to a tape drive.

I don't think it's certain that a CD will lose it's data in 5 years as long as it's properly cared for.  I have CDs here at work that I burned as long as 5 years ago and they're still fine.  

That said, it's one of the reasons I haven't jumped on the digital bandwagon (though I do scan my analog prints for easier sharing).  I had an epiphany one day that I'd never be able to reproduce digital images lost to a HDD crash or "bit rot".  I didn't want to risk my family's memories in that way.  I have negatives and prints in my collection going back 10+ years.  My parents have them going back over 35 years.  My grandparents have stuff even older.  And they're all viewable without a computer...

Unfortunately, most of the pics from my daughter's first 48hours, including her first minutes of life,  are digital.  I have them backed up in 4 different locations and I still worry about them.

Chris

[280plus]

Any way to back them up on tape? Even that goes south eventually though.

I thought I lost my kid's graduation pictures in the last crash But stumbled across them a few weeks ago. Now I guess I should be smart and make a couple floppys of them.

Thanks!


BTW, i just burned off my 3rd roll with the Leica...

One of these days I'm going to have to sit down and post a few shots.

[cosine]

You know, a couple of years ago I was big on digital storage. However, after having some computer troubles I realized that it isn't always reliable. So, like the experts suggest, anything really important now gets stored on a hard medium.

With proper care, though, digital storage works pretty well. I have cds and floppies that are over five years old which still work decently. Haven't lost any data off of them yet.

[mtnbkr]

280, tape is generally more stable than a HDD platter.  It's still the standard for long term storage (that doesn't require quick access).  

So, like the experts suggest, anything really important now gets stored on a hard medium

That brings up problem 2 with digital...

They're still working on "archival" quality printing methods.  The various players in this area claim to have the ability to deliver archival prints, but there's no proof (I don't care how long it lasts in your lab).  

The archival thing is important to me as my family gets older and members pass away.  Several years ago, I found a couple rolls of film in my grandmother's camera bag.  They had been exposed, so I sent them to a lab out west that specialized in old films.  It cost me $60, but I was able to get several prints of my grandparents, my mom, and my aunt from the early 60s.  I'm getting ready to try the same thing myself with a roll of 60yo Verichrome I found in my wife's grandfather's camera bag.  What would you do if you found a 50yo jpeg?  Even if the media was intact, would the file format be readable with current computers?

Chris

[Ben]

What's the 5 year CD life thing? I've never seen anything on that so don't know either way, other than the empirical evidence of having lots of CDs that I've burned in the 5-10 year range, and quite a few commercial data CDs older than that, with nary a problem.

Many of these don't get accessed a lot, so if the lifespan is due to number of reads versus just plain physical degradation due to age, then maybe that's why I haven't had a problem.

[Justin]

I've never heard the bit about CD's only lasting five years, either.  I've always assumed that the filetypes or filestructure on the disc would become old and obsolete before the media itself began to degrade.

[K Frame]

"tape is generally more stable than a HDD platter."

Really? That I didn't know. What about tape aging and delamination of the storage layer from the substrate? How long does that take? That's a problem facing the National Archives with some of Richard Nixon's secret tapes and they're going nuts trying to figure out how to get the information off of them.


"would the file format be readable with current computers?"

I'd hope that there would be backwards-compatible reader downloads, but that's a point that I'd never thought about.

Here's an interesting article on expected life spans for a couple of different media...

http://www.clir.org/PUBS/reports/pub121/sec4.html

[K Frame]

To cut to the chase in the article above...

"Among the manufacturers that have done testing, there is consensus that, under recommended storage conditions, CD-R, DVD-R, and DVD+R discs should have a life expectancy of 100 to 200 years or more; CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM discs should have a life expectancy of 25 years or more."

[280plus]

Last I knew from answers to a previous question posted here image files burned on a cd tend to deteriorate after ~8 years and that you should reburn them every 5 years to be safe. I'm just being a parrot here.

So I was just a wonderin' if that applied to the other methods of digital storage as well. Apparently not?

[mtnbkr]

I haven't run into it myself, but there's supposed to be an instability with DVDs that causes something called "bit rot" that affects the readability of the disk over time.  I haven't heard of it affecting CDs except those stored in poor conditions (music CDs stored in your car for example).  

There's also the issue of DVDs delaminating or something similar.  Either way, at least with DVDs, the media isn't very robust and can't be considered archival (not just a problem with images, lots of folks rely on DVD and CD for long term data backups).

Chris

[K Frame]

I have heard of the bit rot.

One thing I read a couple of years ago made it sound as if what happened was that the holes burned into the storage layer actually begin to fill up with as the storage media around them beings to migrate.

[lee n. field]

Floppy's definatly do deteriorate.

Hard disks are sealed, and should be good as long as the electronics and mechanical parts hold out, and we have hardware that talks to that interface (for example, try to locate an MFM controller now, and an ISA bus slot to put it in).

280, tape is generally more stable than a HDD platter.  It's still the standard for long term storage (that doesn't require quick access).

Except that there are far too many different tape formats, and you have to keep a working drive around to read them.  Can you find something now to read 15 year old Irwin Accutrak tapes?

"Among the manufacturers that have done testing, there is consensus that, under recommended storage conditions, CD-R, DVD-R, and DVD+R discs should have a life expectancy of 100 to 200 years or more; CD-RW, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, and DVD-RAM discs should have a life expectancy of 25 years or more."

If you use archival quality media and store it properly.  Home users aren't going to pay for that.

I suspect that the long term solution will be to keep copies in multiple places, and keep migrating data to new storage technologies as it becomes available.  Or hand write everything on parchment and store it in a dry room in Syria.  (I'm thinking Codex Sinaticus here.  Look it up, it's fascinating.)

[K Frame]

Lee,

I don't see anything in that article that talking about archival-quality CDs/DVDs...

[mtnbkr]

Except that there are far too many different tape formats, and you have to keep a working drive around to read them

Yup.  I usually hesitate to bring up tape because of that.  However, if you have the drive and a supply of tapes...

I suspect that the long term solution will be to keep copies in multiple places,

That's what I do.  Of my analog photos, I keep the negs upstairs in a binder, the prints downstairs in albums, and scans on the PC.  My digital shots (including scans) are backed up from the PC to the server every couple months and burned to CD every 6 months or so.  Those CDs get stored at my parents' house at the other end of the state.  If Manassas becomes a smoking crater, my parents will at least have all of our photos in digital format.  I'm considering storing negatives at my parents' home as well since I rarely go back and reprint images after a few months.  

Yes, I'm paranoid about losing my pics.  With family aging and passing away or moving away to be rarely seen again, it's important to preserve those memories.

Chris

[K Frame]

"If Manassas becomes a smoking crater..."

Trust me, that would be an improvement.

[Harold Tuttle]

can you say:
phthalocyanine?

i work at National Geographic Magazine in digital imaging

believe me, we have a sticky wicket with this issue

i have posted about these disks before:
http://www.dsgi.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/cgi-local/pagegen_cdr.pl?U+scstore+ytpm5897s=gglff602960+CDRXX-TG-MAM+prodtmpl_mam-a_gold.html

Archive-quality media
300 year expected life
24 karat gold reflective layer
Resistant to chemical breakdown
74 & 80 minute lengths available
52X speed

MAM-A Gold Lacquer CD-R

Gold lacquer top surface, with gold phthalocyanine recording surface, 52x. Designed to work with the Rimage Prism, Inscripta, and Aurora thermal printers (mono color). Not for use with the Rimage Everest color printer. Great media for silk-screening. Bulk packaged in 100 piece muffin packs, 600 pieces to a master carton. Available in 74 and 80 minute lengths.

[mtnbkr]

Very interesting.  I forwarded that link to the house for further consideration.  Shame they won't sell in quantities lower than 300.  I could get by with 50 CDs and 10-15 DVDs strictly for backup purposes.

Chris

[Harold Tuttle]

consumer pricing:
http://store.yahoo.com/cdrsavings/mtc74lsgoj-10.html

MAM-A 74m Gold Thermal in Jewel Case(10)

Part Number: MTC74LSGOJ-10
Quantity: 10
Weight: 3
Availability: Usually ships the same business day.

Price $14.40

[mtnbkr]

Thanks!

Chris

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The only chemical photographic processes known to be archival are silver-based (black and white) film/prints and pigment-based (cibachrome/ilfochrome) prints.  Ordinary color film and prints use organic dyes, which will deteriorate within a decade or two.  So, if you use film instead of digital for the sake of it's archival qualities, you'd better be shooting black and white.  Otherwise you may be sorely disappointed in 20 or 30 years.

Modern archival inkjet printers produce images using pigments instead of dyes.  The result is a color print that's just as archival as the best cibachromes.  These prints will outlast standard prints made at the local photo lab.  Independent testing has thoroughly confirmed this fact.  Some folks don't trust these inkjet prints, but rarely is their mistrust based on fact or evidence.

Note that standard inkjet printers use the same sort of organic dyes that are found in standard color prints and film, which are definitely not long-lasting.  If it doesn't say "pigment-based" it isn't archival.


All of my important images are stored both as digital files (on a RAID-arayed hdd) and as archival (pigment-based) inkjet prints.

[mtnbkr]

It's not that I don't trust pigment based inkjet prints, but that I know where I stand with traditional photographic processes.   The pictures my parents took during my childhood still look good (I'm 32 and have pics going back to when I was an infant).  The problem with trusting the new technology is that by the time you find out if it'll work or not, it's too late to do anything about it.

Chris

[K Frame]

"The pictures my parents took during my childhood still look good..."

Yep, that duck is still nice and yellow...

[mtnbkr]

That picture is close to 30 years old.

Chris

[K Frame]

"That picture is close to 30 years old."

And the terror lingers on to this very day...

I'd thing the ones you would WANT to fade would be the ones of you taken during your.... experimentalist hair style phase...