Egypt: What's happening?

[MicroBalrog]

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Uh? Self-sacrifice is awesome throughout the world.

Self-sacrifice, yes - sacrificing yourself when it is necessary to do so. "I'll hold off the zombies, you make for the zeppelin without me." Or taking a bullet for somebody else, etc.
But self-immolation is like suicide by hunger strike. Unnecessary (it's not "you set yourself on fire or we kill everybody in town") and doesn't directly damage the people you're fighting against. If a cause is worth dying over, isn't it worth killing over, too? You douse the other guy with gasoline, and set him on fire.
S-I just doesn't make sense to me. 

[De Selby]

He did far more damage to the regime than any violence towards others could have.  It's tough to argue with actual results, even if it makes no sense in theory

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Self-sacrifice, yes - sacrificing yourself when it is necessary to do so. "I'll hold off the zombies, you make for the zeppelin without me." Or taking a bullet for somebody else, etc.
But self-immolation is like suicide by hunger strike. Unnecessary (it's not "you set yourself on fire or we kill everybody in town") and doesn't directly damage the people you're fighting against. If a cause is worth dying over, isn't it worth killing over, too? You douse the other guy with gasoline, and set him on fire.
S-I just doesn't make sense to me.  

if you believed that you could foment needed change by
a) going to war  killing many of your enemies as well as having many of your likeminded friends die
or
b) lighting yourself on fire to draw the attention of the world to the wrongs being done which is the better course?

add in being a Buddhist
your comment about it not making sense to you is symptomatic of the american failing in the east.  we go at it expecting things there to make sense in a western context, and we plan/act accordingly.  results in us getting our butt handed to us


find the film of the monks imolating themselves  they don't move, they sit still as they cook.  its spooky

[P5 Guy]

The Moslem Brotherhood wants to retake the middle east and return to sharia law.

[De Selby]

The Moslem Brotherhood wants to retake the middle east and return to sharia law.

They never had the middle east, and these revolutions are proof that religious radicals are far less influential than secular refomers

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

if you believed that you could foment needed change by
a) going to war  killing many of your enemies as well as having many of your likeminded friends die
or
b) lighting yourself on fire to draw the attention of the world to the wrongs being done which is the better course?

A. The world's attention is drawn to all sorts of massacres and mayhem, and they rarely end up doing anything but issuing a mildly-worded denunciation of the crimes in question. And collecting donations. And chances are, the good guys will be killed by the evil government guys either way. So you take the initiative and show the course others should follow.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

its interesting that you continue to press your imaginary scenario in the face of real life proven action that worked.  have you seen the film?  not still but the film?

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

its interesting that you continue to press your imaginary scenario in the face of real life proven action that worked.  have you seen the film?  not still but the film?

Yes.
And according to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-immolation
the practice is still ongoing in India, with no apparent success that I can determine, despite happening in higher numbers.
Setting oneself on fire is not an automatic win. It just kills you (if you're lucky). Sometimes it has major effects, sometimes nobody seems to care.

[Blakenzy]

Self-immolation analysis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEKwU_B_n_M

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuSHA0OKEkc

i can't imagine how you hold still while you burn
13 of em did it

[Balog]

The thing about self immolation (or other suicidal protests) is it probably won't work, and when you're dead you can't actually do anything to help your cause. And the reports I've heard indicate that the Tunisian set himself on fire because he was frustrated over not being able to get a job? If that's accurate...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

it won't work?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E37cMtCrKoA&NR=1
it helped greatly to change regimes in vietnam

[MillCreek]

I am watching CNN and wondering if we are seeing the birth of Iran 2.0, but in Egypt.

[roo_ster]

It's tough to argue with actual results, even if it makes no sense in theory

Ayup.

"Hey, don't you sully my theory with reality!"

your comment about it not making sense to you is symptomatic of the american failing in the east.  we go at it expecting things there to make sense in a western context, and we plan/act accordingly.  results in us getting our butt handed to us

find the film of the monks imolating themselves  they don't move, they sit still as they cook.  its spooky

This. 

They.  Ain't.  Like.  Us.

Spooky, yes. 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The Tunisian dude, was it his intention to cause riots and revolution by setting himself on fire?  Or was it just a random, unintended consequence, butterfly wings and hurricanes and whatnot?

All this talk about self-sacrifice and effectiveness seem to presume that the outcome the immolator accomplished was the outcome he desired or intended.  But I wonder if this is actually the case.

[roo_ster]

All this talk about self-sacrifice and effectiveness seem to presume that the outcome the immolator accomplished was the outcome he desired or intended.  But I wonder if this is actually the case.

True.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

True.

one has to believe it will and have enough faith to give it a whirl.

the fact we are having this discussion might seem an indicator

[De Selby]

Problem:

1. Military capability is a function of overall cultural health. A society capable of producing a Western-grade military would not be a modern Arab society.

2. There's no guarantee Egypt will still be wanting to fight Israel after 50 years of democracy.

For one, these revolutions are part of improving social health.  At a minimum, they'll buy Russian.  It's hard to predict what strategies they'll take, but they will improve their capabilities for sure.

There's really no imaginable scenario where an Arab democracy is happy with Israel existing as it does-now that Mubarak is clearly on his way out, I think it's probably safe to predict the demise of Israel as a Jewish state within our lifetimes.

[Monkeyleg]

I think it's probably safe to predict the demise of Israel as a Jewish state within our lifetimes.

I think the Israelis would be surprised to hear this.

[De Selby]

I think the Israelis would be surprised to hear this.

You should read how nervous their government is about this in the press-but you are right that they will see it as a surprise.  So did Mubarak and bin Ali.  This is what happens when your foreign policy depends on dictatorships and force, rather than consensus.

[Monkeyleg]

Israel is a dictatorship?

[De Selby]

Israel is a dictatorship?

No-israel's foreign policy depends on its neighbors being dictatorships.  This is because it's policies of expansion and refusal to grant Palestinians equal rights or statehood have made it irretrievably sinister in the eyes of Arab populations.  As a result, the only way it gets cooperation is through unpopular dictators. 

It's probably too late for a change of course-there have been so many wars and bungled Mossad attacks in Arab countries that no democracy will countenance the existing government.  The best case scenario is a binational state, which will end up largely identifying as Palestinian.  Worst is an ugly pitched battle, the result of which will be a rise in antisemitism that makes the middle east uninhabitable for Europeans of Jewish heritage.

[MicroBalrog]

Oh, the media in Israel is always paranoid about something. This time it's about the MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD RISING TO SWALLOW US ALL. Even Yossi Beilin has caught the bug.

[Monkeyleg]

This is because it's policies of expansion and refusal to grant Palestinians equal rights or statehood have made it irretrievably sinister in the eyes of Arab populations.

Expansion? Let's see. They got the West Bank, Gaza and the Sinai after defeating Egypt, Syria and Jordan in the Six Day War (which kinda makes me question your "demise" statement, when they can defeat three countries at once), and have agreed to give 97% of the West Bank and Gaza land won in the 1967 war to the Palestinians. That agreement keeps getting rebuffed by Hamas in the form of rocket attacks.

I did a Google search for "Israel expansion" and the first page of results were from socialist websites. Funny how that works.