Author Topic: Strange bedfellows...  (Read 3980 times)

BrokenPaw

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« on: March 29, 2006, 02:29:46 AM »
Fistful's thread about the young (ostensibly) pagan lady troubling his church, and my recent pre-response ruminations got me thinking about something interesting.

Most of the pro-gun people that I've found are Christian, and at least a significant percentage of Christians are pro-gun.  

Contrarily-wise, the vast, almost overwhelming majority of Pagans are anti-gun.  I understand that the reason for that is likely that the sort of liberal, granola-eating, pantywaisted bedwetting types who become Pagan tend to follow the Democratic Party line to the letter, under the mistaken impression that they agree with it (and I say this advisedly, knowing that I'm one of those Pagans, although I haven't been Liberal in the current political sense since the 7th grade, and I've pretty much got the bedwetting under control).

But there are philosophies working at cross-purposes here;

Pagans are, for the most part, entirely unconcerned with other people's beliefs and practices; we generally feel that your own spiritual life is your own, and that your own physical life is your own, and as long as you're not impinging on someone else's rights, you're pretty much morally free to do as you like.  Pagans are free to worship, or not, with a Circle, Coven, Grove, Sept, Enclave, or whatever, or by themselves, when and where they choose.

Christians, on the other hand, seem in my experience, to be more authoritarian in what is and what is not acceptable, philosophy-wise (and here I'm not casting aspersions -- Christianity is what it is, and by its nature, its adherents believe that theirs is the One True Way.  If they don't, they're not actually following the tenets of their own faith, which would be rather silly of them).  Things like pornography are verboten, because they are "wrong" (malum prohibitum, as long as the people in the pictures are there voluntarily.  Unless one counts that the sex act is, by its nature, morally wrong, but that's not an absolute - it requires a faith-based moral framework that sets up certain things as "sinful").

So on the one hand we have the Christians, who believe in general that certain things should be prohibited because they are "wrong" (the aforementioned pornography, homosexuality, drug use, Blatant Moral Turpitude, what-have-you), but most of whom believe that people should have the free choice to own guns as they like.

On the other hand we have the Pagans, who for the most part take a rather skeptical view of anyone telling them not to do anything "because it's wrong", opposed to guns "because they're wrong".  I've had members of my Grove recoil in horror at the idea that I own a couple EBRs (which are perfectly legal) but not a one of them would bat an eye if I decided to smoke a joint (which is illegal and, potentially, more intrinsically harmful to me than the mere owning of a gun) as long as I didn't then do something idiotic like go driving while stoned.  (Oh, and for the DEA lurkers -- the drug thing was an example...I'm quite strange enough without drugs, so I don't bother taking them).

I don't want this thread to become an us-them, "my god can beat up your god" rivalry.  I'm just interested in why these two major and competing philosophies seem to have these peculiar areas of belief that seem to run counter to the faiths' basic premises.

Thoughts?
-BP
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mfree

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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2006, 05:12:54 AM »
You are obviously not familiar with the Asatru. Smiley

Most of the pagans I've associated with are not only comfortable with self defense, but are active in such methods. Of the few virulently anti-gun people I've known, one was catholic, two were christian, and one was a native american polytheist.

In fact, you're talking to a pagan who is pretty set on refusing those who would steal my life from me Smiley

BrokenPaw

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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2006, 06:00:02 AM »
Well, actually, I am familiar with the Asatru, and I was leaving them out, because they're an example that is devastating to my premise.  Smiley

Actually, though, I did say "most".  The Asatru are certainly an exception to that "most", just as the "Christian Soccer Moms For Gun Control" would be...

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

USP45usp

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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2006, 08:34:15 AM »
It also depends on what denomination when it comes to Christianity and firearm owership.  I will also add in the Jewish People.

Most of your Jewish People, living in the US and other countries, are mostly rabid anti-gunners.  Why, I don't understand with their past history as a People.  The cry of "Never Again" rings hollow when they are trying to disarm their own People as well as others that would ally with them.

Then you have the church leadership that preaches against firearms, disallow firearms on their properties, and advocate (wrongly) the "Turn the other cheek" reference.  When asked about "Sell your cloak and buy one" (in reference to arms), they "interrupt" that wrongly as well.  

The main Christians that advocate gun/weapons ownership are looked at by other "Christian" groups as extreme, up to and including "cults" (The Baptist, which are primarily for weapons ownership, are said to be more cultish by other denominations).

As for homosexuality, many churchs are becoming more and more PC.  I won't drag this into a homosexuality thread but just wanted to point out that even the base values and morals that have been set in stone since Jesus came upon the earth are being eroded by the church.

As for pagans and other non-Christian groups, many to all that lived in NM right outside of Alamogordo were firearm owners.

My belief is that with the so called "education" that our children are given, the media bias and agenda, and basically the American People as a whole who are too lazy to do research on their own and just take everything as told to them, is what is driving down this country, as well as our love of freedom, down.

Wayne

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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2006, 06:15:37 PM »
I have to say, I think you're a touch off in your premise (or need to meet more pagans). Many of the pagans I know like the idea of owning weapons (or at least, accept it), and many of the antis I run into are quite Christian. That said...

 Many of those who identify as "Witches" or "Wiccans" tend to be on the far left of the political scale. And I THINK it's because they believe in many of the planks of the Left's platform: pro-choice, religious tolerance, equal rights, affirmative action, sexual tolerance, etc. And they figure that, since so many of the other planks are what they agree with, then they should go along with gun control. Also, many are of a "communistic" outlook: not necessarily in the big picture (although they DO tend twords statism), but in the smaller picture...

 Quite often, the ones you run into (and know their viewpoints) are the vocal "fluff-bunnies": all love and light, made up history, and nobody should EVER use violence (even if their own life is at stake). They're REALLY easy to spot: a pentacle the size of a hubcap, ranting about how terrible Christians are, bemoaning "the Burning Times", etc. You get to hear other fun things out of this lot: like the Celts were a peaceful people, Pagan practices persisted as a religion throughout the Middle Ages among the peasants, weird powers... the works. The rest of us just kinda shake our heads...

 Personally, most of those I know personally are quite open to the idea of owning guns/shooting/self defense. I've even taken several out for their first range session. And a few have tried talking me into conducting a workshop on self-defense and the Rede at a PPD or PSG (Pagan Pride Day, Pagan Spirit Gathering). I've declined so far, as I have NO time to devote to getting shouted at by rabble...

 Guess I'd have to say it's just the vocal ones that fall into the groupings you mention...

mfree

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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2006, 06:51:48 PM »
I think the major theological breakdown leading to anti-defense thinking must be the belief that the human soul is inherently good, that everyone can be "washed clean". There are sects of christianity that hold that, and there are certainly pagans who hold that to be a truth.

The rest of us know "evil" and would actively end it when it strikes at us, preferably with a firearm.

RayannaDeerfox

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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2006, 08:29:25 PM »
Gun-toting pagan liberal here.... I think the reason you see many pagans jumping on this gun-control bandwagon is because they adhere to the "An it harm none" mentality to the point of insanity.  In a discussion on another list, I have actually "heard" a fellow pagan say that they would rather be raped and killed than pull a gun on their attacker because it would be harming them and that would negatively affect their karma.  Apparently this ilk of pagans have forgotten the most basic of rules of being a human - survive.

Of course, what we're referring to here are people who are on the pinky waving end of the insanity arm.  In most aspects of life (be it christians vs. pagans, liberals vs. conservatives, etc.) there are always going to be those who take it to the extreme.  I like to think that those extremists are in the minority.  I find it very difficult to lump everyone into one group.  Not all christians are against gun-control.  Not all pagans are for it.  Not all liberals are tree-hugging, bell-bottom wearing hippies.  Not all conservatives are gun-toting, tie-wearing corporate executives.

Not all pie is served a la mode.

Strings

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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2006, 08:32:09 PM »
>Not all pie is served a la mode<

WHAT?!?!?! TRAVESTY! HERESY! say it ain't so!!!


:neener:

Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2006, 08:41:49 PM »
Cheesy My ancestors were Vikings.  I think that should give some clues to the observant.

Some goblin picks a fight with me and I've got his karma right here.....

Cheesy Regards,
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Strings

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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2006, 08:46:15 PM »
Heh... reminds me of a story...

 Group of Kluckers found out that a pagan group was gonna be celebrating a rit in a nearby public forest. They (the Kluckers) decided they'd be fun to mess with, so they loaded up all their usual gear (bed sheets, dunce caps, flamable cross) and went out lookin' fer the pagans. They found 'em, too...

 When they finally encounterd the "filthy, peacenik, godless heathens", there was a bit of a supprise. The Kluckers found themselves surrounded by the history of weaponry: axes, knives, spears, swords, guns, and big rocks. The comment made was "you plant that cross, you get nailed to it. and I've got my hammer right here!"

SADShooter

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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2006, 04:34:05 AM »
That's just...sweet. cool
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BrokenPaw

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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2006, 04:37:55 AM »
I suppose Hunter Rose has nailed the reason that I came to my initial conclusion; just like you don't hear from most Christians, you just hear from the Lunatic Fringe, likewise it's only the we-got-something-to-prove low-self-confidence lipstick pagans that end up spouting about how we shouldn't defend ourselves or what-have-you.

Meanwhile the Asatru are polishing their hammers, and the rest of mainstream paganism is going about its business with a wicked-sharp athame in one hand and a Beretta IWB.  Smiley

I withdraw the question; I hadn't thought it out fully before posting.

Thanks, all
-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

RevDisk

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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2006, 05:02:00 AM »
Heh, I know of a case where 'certain folks' would take potshots at a coven during their rites.   As far as the pagans knew, none of the rounds came close, so the 'certain folks' might have just fired into the air and enjoyed the sight of a bunch of pagans diving for cover.  

Next rite, again, certain folk pop a couple rounds off, only to be answered with a massed concentration of fire returned.  (30 people with EBR's going to town, so to speak)  Granted, they were blanks, but the certain folks didn't know it.   No more potshots.   Wink


Yes, I've known too many fluffy bunny pagans.  I dislike them.   Wicca tends to get a lot of them, as it's a very er, pacifistic sect.   Plus it attracts the wannabe hippies.   Most non-Wiccan sects tend to be at a minimum equal in distribution of guns/antiguns to the rest of the US.   I've yet to find a Nordic pagan that did not believe in owning lots and lots of weapons.  


My own path believes people should own anything from a .22 pistol to a Iowa class battleship.   However, we support common sense gun control.   Such as requiring a permit for Mark 7 16 inchers and up, or a free public demonstration in leiu of the permit.   And of course, manditory usage of .45 ACP on goblins, instead of 9mm.   Because 9mm is a worthless round, with only slightly more effect than a BB gun.   (Kidding, kidding!  You know I'd never support registration of naval artillery.)
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SpookyPistolero

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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2006, 05:17:24 AM »
"I confused things with their name; that is belief." Jean Paul Sartre
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grampster

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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2006, 07:23:28 AM »
Actually, to BrokenPaw's original comment about his thought that most pagans to be anti gun, I have to say that I have been completely surprised to find, over the past couple, two tree years on the gun boards, to find so many pagans.

  I actually don't think about who does what religion very much as I am content in my own faith.   I feel each person should be completely grounded in what he believes.  That does not mean I'm not curious or observant, it's just that in matters of faith, I think it's more about what you do as a result of what you believe, than what you say.  In living what you believe, one is able to sample much of life's experiences in a positive way.  One should be self moderated in that regard.  I have never been one to counsel folks not to do what they want, except if that behavior is a threat to me and those I love or, when I was in LE, sworn to protect.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2006, 07:46:15 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
Heh... reminds me of a story...

 Group of Kluckers found out that a pagan group was gonna be celebrating a rit in a nearby public forest. They (the Kluckers) decided they'd be fun to mess with, so they loaded up all their usual gear (bed sheets, dunce caps, flamable cross) and went out lookin' fer the pagans. They found 'em, too...

 When they finally encounterd the "filthy, peacenik, godless heathens", there was a bit of a supprise. The Kluckers found themselves surrounded by the history of weaponry: axes, knives, spears, swords, guns, and big rocks. The comment made was "you plant that cross, you get nailed to it. and I've got my hammer right here!"
True story?  Personal experience?
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Strings

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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2006, 05:56:48 AM »
>True story?  Personal experience?<

Anecdote, related to me from someone ho lived in the area (I want to say GA or TN).

 In case you haven't caught on to it yet fistful, the Asatru follow the Norse pantheon: Odin, Thor, etc. Their get-togethers can look a LOT like a THR gathering (but with fewer Christians)...

Tallpine

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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2006, 06:54:08 AM »
I'm a pagan and I shoot back!  Cheesy


Seriously, I have often wondered the same things as BP.  I guess that's why I am a "lone wolf" - I don't want to get mixed up with a bunch anti-gun vegans Sad

Historically, pagans of various flavors were warriors and ate meat.  I don't have a problem with that Wink
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BrokenPaw

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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2006, 07:06:01 AM »
Most of my Grove is reasonably libertarian in philosophy.  There's one guy that is a little bit worried about the concept and proximity of EBRs at the Grove house, but he deals, because after all, it is my place.

A few of our members are of a leftist political mindset, and when they get to wibbling about how the government owes them this or that, I thump them back into rational thought.

I do feel sorry for the wayward youth that decides to threaten our Circle, though; our Man in Black[0] is a prison guard with a physique that is almost beyond comprehension.  Also he can shoot.

So far no one's messed with our Circle, though.  It's private and secluded, which is why we picked that spot.

Wow, is it wrong to contribute to drift on your own thread?

-BP

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Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Mabs2

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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2006, 07:09:09 AM »
Quote
Pagans are, for the most part, entirely unconcerned with other people's beliefs and practices; we generally feel that your own spiritual life is your own, and that your own physical life is your own, and as long as you're not impinging on someone else's rights, you're pretty much morally free to do as you like.
I've always felt the same way.
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2006, 07:30:48 AM »
>I don't want to get mixed up with a bunch anti-gun vegans<

Cute story.

Almost ANY pagan potluck is vegan, it seems. Notices always seem to say "bring a vegan dish to pass"

 A young lady friend of mine goes to one of these events with a bisexual pagan hottie, and a cooler full of steak. When asked about the cooler, she replies: it's meat, for dinner!". When they pointed out the "vegan dish" rule, she points to her date "go ahead, pass her around"...

 The girl in question IS a bit different...

benEzra

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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2006, 10:27:43 AM »
Quote
So on the one hand we have the Christians, who believe in general that certain things should be prohibited because they are "wrong" (the aforementioned pornography, homosexuality, drug use, Blatant Moral Turpitude, what-have-you), but most of whom believe that people should have the free choice to own guns as they like.
There is a difference between believing that God disapproves of a certain thing, and believing that God wants you to force other people to conform to His wishes at gunpoint.  Issuing commandments and setting consequences is His job, not mine, and one that he does NOT delegate to Christians or anyone else.

It is my belief (as a centrist to center-left libertarian leaning Christian) that it is not the job of a Christian to force other people to live as Christians at gunpoint.  If you believe Jesus to be whom he said he was (as I, and other Christians, do), you have to believe that he had the power to compel external obedience to his every word if he wished to do so.  He didn't.  Instead, he showed the poor, the prostitutes, the diseased, the outcast, and yes, the sinners, that he loved them, and God loved them.  The people Jesus castigated most harshly weren't the "sinners," but the self-righteous religious leaders who thought themselves SO much better than "those other people."

I can tell you, based on my understand of the Bible, that I believe God disapproves of this or that behavior.  But your response to his dictates is between you and him, and it is not my job or my calling to pass laws to MAKE you live by my interpretation thereof.

FWIW, one of my wife's best friends is a practicing pagan, as is her husband.  We all get along great, despite our greatly differing theologies.  It's amazing how far "live and let live" goes to create a workable society...

USP45usp

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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2006, 12:10:41 PM »
Wow, the boards say that it's against the rules to talk religion because they always end up in flames.  Yet, look at us here, great conversation.

Wayne

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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2006, 01:36:57 PM »
Wayne: the problems come up with only certain people (the constant wrangling between fistful and I would be a good example). Trick is, the worst offenders are NOT here: while fistful and I will never agree (and he's positive that I'm gong to Hell), I'm willing to bet that he'd stand with me were someone trying to burn me out, as I would stand beside him. That's ne of the great things about the three boards (TFL, THR, APS)...

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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2006, 05:41:06 PM »
BP, I used to hang with the pagans in college, and a fair number of them were "kick yer ass" types, so I'm not surprised to see y'all.  I'm amazed by all the Jews who are here.  Talk about breaking stereotypes!
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