Author Topic: Copyright  (Read 47069 times)

280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #100 on: March 29, 2011, 11:26:27 AM »
Ahhhh, the google, ask it anything...

I haven't read it and don't have time right now cause I gots ta get going!

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Copyright-Patents-915/2010/1/copyright-trademark-v-patent.htm
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280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #101 on: March 29, 2011, 11:27:22 AM »
That is exactly the case. DeSelby has it completely right here:

Copyrights existed long before Disney, no?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #102 on: March 29, 2011, 11:31:38 AM »
Copyrights existed long before Disney, no?

A few hundred years or so ... but who's counting when you need to make a dramatic point?
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2011, 11:34:20 AM »
I don't think you know what non-rivalrous means.

Seriously, I'm not trying to screw people out of being rewarded for their intellectual labor. I just don't understand why the intellectual labor of songs, books, pictures, and the like are SO MUCH MORE VALUABLE than the intellectual labor of designing motors, wheels, gears, drugs, and the like.

It isn't about economic rivalry or the consumablility of a resource.  It's about who gets to decide what the owner's purpose will be for his property, and whether or not someone else appropriating his rights as owner interferes with his use of his property.

You may not feel that you're interfering with his property when you use or distribute it illicitly, but your opinion mattes for squat.  It ain't your property, and it ain't your decision to make how it will be used.

I tell you what, why don't I come by your place today and paint a great big billboard advertisement for my company right across the front face of your house.  Personally, I think your use for your property is as a place to eat and sleep, and I don't think my gaudy advertising interferes with your usage.  A little bit of extra paint certainly doesn't consume your house as a good, so we're not getting into issues of economic rivalry here.  And if you don't like, well, too bad.  You're just the owner and you don't get a say in the matter.  
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 11:58:41 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Nick1911

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #104 on: March 29, 2011, 11:35:43 AM »
A few hundred years or so ... but who's counting when you need to make a dramatic point?

Because clearly the scope of copyright haven't been redefined by legislation since then!




RevDisk

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #105 on: March 29, 2011, 11:44:50 AM »
 
DeSelby is correct.  The sole reason why copyright is at 120 years is due to Steamboat Willie (1928).  Each and every time Steamboat Willie has faced public domain, the copyright has been extended via the Mickey Mouse Protection Act of 1998.

We can argue about the semantics of copyright all day long.  It however, as it often does, boil down to the Constitution which supersedes all other US law.


Quote
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

The point of copyright, patents, et al is NOT to guarantee you a paycheck off of your IP for the rest of your life, property rights, artistic integrity or any bloody thing else.  It is to promote the progress of the science and useful arts.  Anyone here may dislike or disagree with this intent.  Fine.  Go change the US Constitution if you don't like what it says, but don't pretend it's not being clear as day.  Don't pull a Brady Bunch tactic and try to deliberately misunderstand the wording.  

If copyright laws are not promoting the Progress of Science and useful Arts, then it is illegal and needs to be scrapped.  

As for the current time ranges, I'm not sure if limited Times could be validly considered "longer than YOUR life expectation".   Technically heat death of the universe minus a day is a limited time, thus we should probably use the term within the scope of human mortality.  Is it a limited time when it's longer than you will realistically spend on this planet?  
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 11:59:59 AM by RevDisk »
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De Selby

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #106 on: March 29, 2011, 11:49:06 AM »
Headless, you decided that an idea is property how again???  It was not recognized as such until people figured out that monopolies could be useful regulatory tools to promote development.  

It's an odd class of property that can be stolen without you ever finding out about it, ever.  That's one key difference between IP and traditional property.  

Mak's voice is his, yet you don't want to allow him to use it as he sees fit whenever someone else made the same sounds in sequence first.  That's an example that clearly distinguishes IP and justifies viewing it through its traditional classification as a Government regulation designed to achieve planned economic outcomes.

IP is not like a house; it's a government granted right to tell other people how they can or cannot use their own property, bodies, and talents.  
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 11:53:32 AM by De Selby »
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makattak

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #107 on: March 29, 2011, 11:50:32 AM »
It isn't about economic rivalry or the consumablility of a resource.  It's about who gets to decide what the owner's purpose will be for his property, and whether or not someone else appropriating his rights as owner interferes with his use of his property.

You may not feel that you're interfering with his property when you use or distribute it illicitly, but your opinion mattes for squat.  It ain't your property, and it ain't your decision to make how it will be used.


If I may, you're arguing against something I've never advocated. Copyright law should be followed. It's simply stupidly long now and I advocate changing the laws. I do not, nor to I advocate, distributing or receiving copyrighted materials illicitly.

I advocate lowering the copyright term to some lower, saner time period. As I said, the founders (in 1790) passed copyright law as granting 14 years with a renewal available for another 14 years. I think that should be plenty. Life + 70 years is far too long and strangles, rather than promotes, creativity.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #108 on: March 29, 2011, 11:52:23 AM »

DeSelby is correct.  The sole reason why copyright is at 120 years is due to Steamboat Willie (1928).  Each and every time Steamboat Willie has faced public domain, the copyright has been extended via the Mickey Mouse Protection Act of 1998.

We can argue about the semantics of copyright all day long.  It however, as it often does, boil down to the Constitution which supersedes all other US law.


The point of copyright, patents, et al is NOT to guarantee you a paycheck off of your IP for the rest of your life.  It is to promote the progress of the science and useful arts.  Anyone here may dislike or disagree with this intent.  Fine.  Go change the US Constitution.  Don't pull a Brady Bunch tactic and try to deliberately misunderstand the wording.  If copyright is not promoting the Progress of Science and useful Arts, then it is illegal and needs to be scrapped.   I'm not sure if limited Times could be validly considered realistically a life's duration.   Technically heat death of the universe minus a day is a limited time, thus we should probably use the term within the scope of human mortality.  Is it a limited time if it's longer than you will realistically spend on this planet? 

The Constitution leaves it up to congress to determine just how long that limited time should be, and that's exactly what congress has been doing via its legislation.

I grok that you don't like how long the periods are, nor the fact that congress sometimes uses it's legal authorities to extend the periods.  But you're not liking of it doesn't mean its a violation of the constitution.

De Selby

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #109 on: March 29, 2011, 12:07:44 PM »
Part of the problem is that people used to understand what copyright actually was - a market regulation to be implemented only for a specific purpose.  That's why it wasn't abused and didn't masquerade as its own financial/corporate religion.

It's now been transfigured into some special kind of property granted by holy writ; there're more resources given, and greater legal protections offered, to protect copyright than to protect people from unfair foreclosures on their own homes.  That's just backwards, and it screams "corporate manipulation of the system" like nothing else.

A plain reading of the Constitution makes congressional authority to grant these monopolies clearly related to promoting development.  So I'll repeat my outlook for copyright policy: if an IP law can't be demonstrated to promote development, it ought to be repealed.
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RevDisk

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #110 on: March 29, 2011, 12:16:34 PM »
The Constitution leaves it up to congress to determine just how long that limited time should be, and that's exactly what congress has been doing via its legislation.

I grok that you don't like how long the periods are, nor the fact that congress sometimes uses it's legal authorities to extend the periods.  But you're not liking of it doesn't mean its a violation of the constitution.

Sigh.  That was the entire point of my post.  That my opinion or preferences, nor anyone else's, are not the litmus test.  The provided litmus test, in the Constitution, is the controlling 'opinion'.  If 120 or life + 70 is promoting the progress of science and the useful arts, it is legal.  If it is not, it is not legal.

Congress can and does pass whatever they like, and that is not a statement of how Constitutionally valid something is.  Congress passes unconstitutional laws on a regular basis.  That is a matter for the Courts.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #111 on: March 29, 2011, 12:26:29 PM »
But the original constitutional copyright clause can be applied to a timeframe in which an artist can/should be paid for there work.

After all, artists got to eat.

And a good artist who can sell work should be capable of earning his money, which would encorage him/her to make more art.

Part of the reason that the guy who created Calvin and Hobbes quit was copyright violations on his work. He wasn't getting paid for his images, and got upset at not being able to control the images being used in ways he felt were distastful and wrong, so he quit producing.

Also, in regards to shakespeare, he used classic stories which were well known and so old that to find heirs to acknowledge would have been ludicrious. Same goes for him. We can't say who his heirs ARE.
At the sametime, we can now reliably research who's desended from whom, and I would say that intellectial property should become avalible to public domain once the original creators relations can no longer give a reasonable answer about how he/she would want their work used.

I mean, no one can say that shakespeare would not approve of the adaptation of Taming Of the Shrew done as a modern teen flick, but i'm pretty sure that j.d. Salinger and his heirs could give a pretty good account of why his work should not, and when they're all dead, whoever wants can play with it.

I think copyright is less about money as it is creative control. If I wrote a song, I can safely say that I would get nasty if someone wanted to use it to sell something I hate. Because its my expression, and I don't want to be associated with such things.
Thats what I think should be protected.
The how to do it part, I freely admit that I have no clue how to word it.
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280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #112 on: March 29, 2011, 02:14:24 PM »
Quote
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
Think about that phrase again. Almost could be interpreted as .gov LIMITING the time you can hold a patent or copyright. In other words, yes it's yours but not forever. If Ditney is smart enough to lobby their way into longer and lonegr copyright durations, more power to them. much as I hate to say that about Ditney. If you don't like it, go lobby for change I guess.

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280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #113 on: March 29, 2011, 02:16:02 PM »
Then again maybe not.  =D
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280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #114 on: March 29, 2011, 02:17:50 PM »
So you guys are saying every idea that becomes realized in one form or another should immediately become part of the public domain for all to profit from. Sounds like a hard sell to me.
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280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #115 on: March 29, 2011, 02:26:45 PM »
ok, another question, looking at this again:
Quote
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

How DOES securing the rights of the authors and inventors PROMOTE the progress of Science and useful arts?
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280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #116 on: March 29, 2011, 02:35:37 PM »
Two interesting reads:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_in_Music_Licensing_Act_of_1998   

<--- this one is particularly interesting since ASCAP harrased the hell out of a friend of mine for $600 a year to cover his tiny little coffee shop. Well after 1998, those thieving bastards. Too bad all of us were too stupid to knw about the law.  =|
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makattak

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #117 on: March 29, 2011, 02:45:05 PM »
So you guys are saying every idea that becomes realized in one form or another should immediately become part of the public domain for all to profit from. Sounds like a hard sell to me.

You are deliberately misrepresenting what I have clarified repeatedly.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #118 on: March 29, 2011, 03:18:33 PM »
Uh, no I'm not, I'm asking a question. If your answer is no then that would have been a better way to reply.

So you're saying yes we should have these exclusive rights but you think they way they are now the duration is too long for your tastes. yes, or no?
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280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2011, 03:20:19 PM »
Theother question I asked remains unaswered. How does protecting my rights further progress and creativity in my field (for example)?
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makattak

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #120 on: March 29, 2011, 03:25:51 PM »
Uh, no I'm not, I'm asking a question. If your answer is no then that would have been a better way to reply.

So you're saying yes we should have these exclusive rights but you think they way they are now the duration is too long for your tastes. yes, or no?

A question has a question mark at the end of it, as well as a phrasing like: "So ARE you guys saying...?"

To answer your question:

Seriously, I'm not trying to screw people out of being rewarded for their intellectual labor. I just don't understand why the intellectual labor of songs, books, pictures, and the like are SO MUCH MORE VALUABLE than the intellectual labor of designing motors, wheels, gears, drugs, and the like.

We grant 20 years to people's intellectual labor in patent law. Why is 28 years of copyright far too little? Patent owners don't get life+ 70 years. Should all drugs be under patent for 120 years? The drug designers invested a great amount of time, why shouldn't they be able to extract the full value of their intellectual labor?

Is it because we realize patent work actually is important and although we grant copyright holders so much longer, it's only because we know their work isn't all that important and we can thus indulge this as a society?


« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 03:32:52 PM by makattak »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

makattak

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #121 on: March 29, 2011, 03:31:46 PM »
Theother question I asked remains unaswered. How does protecting my rights further progress and creativity in my field (for example)?

There are no rights being protected by copyright or patent. Rights are being granted. Specifically, the right to exclusive profit, for a time, from an idea or expression.

This is advancing the arts and science by encouraging people to innovate and express new ideas. This eoncouragement towards innovation must be balanced against the loss to society of a public good. As such, we have struck a balance with patents where the innovator, no matter how valuable his idea, gets 20 years to profit from that idea. Afterwards, the whole of society gets the benefit.

In copyright we have succumbed to interest group politics and granted an insane amount of time for sole profit owing to the lobbying of the Disney corporation. Given those supporting copyright have no problem with this lobbying for their benefit, what reason should I have to believe copyright will eventually be granted in perpetuity?

Why have a limit to copyright at all?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2011, 03:32:08 PM »
Pardon my mispunctuation. A period works there too. It is a statement of what I thought |I was perceiving.

Anyhoo, yea ok, so we answered that, because Ditney lobbied it so and you won't find a lot of intellectual property onwers arguing against it, why should they? You don't like it? Take up the crusade. As I stated earlier, I lean in the direction of longer patent duration myself. Either it's the obsolescence thing or they need better lobbyists but they're getting the short end of the stick. Maybe they should hire Ditney.
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280plus

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2011, 03:33:08 PM »
Looks like our simulposts match right up.  :laugh:
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makattak

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Re: Copyright
« Reply #124 on: March 29, 2011, 03:33:56 PM »
Pardon my mispunctuation. A period works there too. It is a statement of what I thought |I was perceiving.

Anyhoo, yea ok, so we answered that, because Ditney lobbied it so and you won't find a lot of intellectual property onwers arguing against it, why should they? You don't like it? Take up the crusade. As I stated earlier, I lean in the direction of longer patent duration myself. Either it's the obsolescence thing or they need better lobbyists but they're getting the short end of the stick. Maybe they should hire Ditney.

Concentrated benefit and dispersed costs.

I.e. the problem of interest group politics.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought