Author Topic: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine  (Read 20504 times)

longeyes

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Re: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine
« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2011, 11:21:53 AM »
I don't believe in invading anyone who's not an existential threat to us.  I'll let the Europeans decide if getting their society infested with hard drugs (and everything that comes with) is an existential threat.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine
« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2011, 11:36:07 AM »
I'm glad we agree that hard drugs do not constitute an existential threat to the United States.

Let us define a democracy for this purpose.

In my view, a system of government which protects, even in a limited form, the individual rights to free speech and private property, and conducts regular relatively-fair elections (nowhere in the world are there entirely fraud-free elections, not even in the United States of America), while not libertarian, is infinitely superior to what occured in practically every country in the world up until the very recent future (including countries like Greece, Portugal, and Spain, considered generally to be part of Western civilization). If this ends up the state of affairs in even some of the Arab countries which are currently in rebellion, we will have made excellent progress  and humanity as a whole would have benefited from this event.

Yes, this is a fairly minimal definition of democracy. Western countries - which have decades, and in some cases, centuries of experience at the democracy game - have more advanced freedom technologies.  But to declare Muslim democracies, established 20 or 30 decades ago, failed projects because they have not immediately mastered and implemented technologies that took us decades to develop and implement is setting a bar incredibly high. It is like saying you are a cripple because you do not swim as well as Michael Phelps.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 11:40:19 AM by MicroBalrog »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

longeyes

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Re: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine
« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2011, 01:57:24 PM »
I agree with you in principle, but my view is that truly representative governance requires a substrate of values, a metaphysic, a worldview that I believe is lacking in Islamic nations.  You're right that something is better than nothing, but my primary concern is that they be harmless, not political examples of a congenial philosophy.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2011, 02:58:15 PM »
This is something I disagree on.

In essence, I regard democracy, much like the free market, to be a technology of sorts.

Consider an example from the martial arts. If I take a sharpened entrenchment tool and execute a stabbing blow into a man's chin, that man is going to have a really bad day if I do it right. And anybody can do it right if they train in some combatives.  They don't have to be a Shaolin Monk to really mess someone up, all they need to do is practice their moves and do them right.

Every culture has both totalitarian and liberal aspects to it, and while culture is important, if you maintain a semi-liberal democracy for a few decades, the more liberal aspects will come up more.  Take Germany. They've invented some of the chief aspects of modern totalitarianism, and yet you'd hardly notice that looking at their country. Sure it's a welfare state, but it's hardly meaningfully worse than France, Britain, or Estonia. It's actually far better than most of the world (not an unimportant point). The totalitarian aspects of German culture have been suppressed so much people are shamed and ostracized for holding those views.

Now it is true that a modern democracy is much improved if the people who live in them have certain attitudes (Anglo-Saxon Protestants are better at it than, say, Slavic Orthodox!).

But here's the thing. If you manage to maintain a modern democracy for a few decades - a few successful semi-fair elections - it will lead to more prosperity and less brutality.

Similar is a free market.

Go to an African country. Lower taxes. Introduce private property. Lo and behold, the economy starts growing even if the people doing it are not Anglo-Saxonprotestants. Maybe it starts growing at a lower rate (although poor countries which recently implemented economic reform have explosive growth rates. Last anybody checked, Indonesia had 6% annual growth).

Let me be clear: In the long run free market economies and democracies springing up places are good for everyone involved. If these countries generate more wealth, that's more wealthy people to trade with and less crazy radicals. Sure they won't be harmless - nobody is harmless - but I prefer not to have incredible massacres next door, which is as viable a policy preference as anything else.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

longeyes

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Re: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2011, 07:10:26 PM »
The success of seeding "democracies" in unlikely soil must be measured long-term.  We don't have that many examples to draw on.  Germany was a democratic state interrupted by dictatorship, but its people understood, and very well, Enlightenment principles.  Japan, a different situation, required a rather drastic turning of the soil before something we like could grow there.  The evolutionary reforms you speak of are not inevitable; they require the cultural substrate I spoke of, at least in my opinion.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2011, 07:13:59 PM »
Nothing is inevitable.

If there is something I learned at the end of two degrees in History it's that the desire to discover immutable historical laws is at best hubris for the historians.

But the fact is, Muslim democracies exist. It's not my argument that all of the Muslim states will immediately sprout rainbows and unicorn. It's merely my argument that the emergence of such limited democracies as have already sprouted in some other Muslim states is in itself a benefit to the region and to humanity as a whole. There is a moral angle to replacing a murderous tyrant with a democracy which cannot be discounted.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

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Re: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine
« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2011, 07:19:00 PM »
Book recommendation micro - the poverty of historicism, by Karl popper
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Charles Krauthammer on Libya and the Bush Doctrine
« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2011, 07:59:31 PM »
Book recommendation micro - the poverty of historicism, by Karl popper

Quite aware of it. Wrote a large essay about Strauss' views on historicism too. :D
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner