Author Topic: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?  (Read 10978 times)

roo_ster

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Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« on: April 03, 2011, 03:19:48 PM »
"Adaptive" in the Darwinian sense, as in "aversion to homosexuality makes a creature more fit to survive and have progeny."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=natural-homophobes-evolutionary-psy-2011-03-09
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=homophobia-phobia-bad-science-or-ba-2011-03-22
Quote
The work in question dates back to 1995-1996 and involves a four-paper exchange published in Ethology and Sociobiology. It is a dialogue between two influential evolutionary psychologists—Gordon Gallup of SUNY-Albany, whose work on human sexuality I’ve covered before, and British psychologist John Archer of the University of Central Lancashire. Their primary debate is about whether or not people’s aversion to homosexuality (colloquially called "homophobia," although both authors acknowledge that this is a misnomer because it is more a negative attitude towards this demographic than it is fear) is a product of natural selection or, alternatively, a culturally constructed, transmitted bias.

The author then goes on to suggest new research be done on this topic, since the opposite proposition has also been covered:
Quote
...most evolutionary research on homosexuality involves trying to locate its fringe gene-enhancing benefits. This homosexuality-is-adaptive-too approach complements a growing tolerance for gay individuals, such as, happily, myself. Gallup comes at things from a very different angle, instead asking why there is such disdain for gay people to begin with and—although cultures may vary in their relative degree of tolerance or practice of homosexual behaviors—why no cultures actually endorse exclusive, lifelong same-sex relationships.

Oh, and a bit about adaptive behavior:
Quote
Remember, adaptive behavior is behavior that simply favors genetic replication. So just as being cuckolded results in maladaptive, unprofitable parental investment in someone else’s biological offspring, gay offspring—even your own biological child—are less likely to reproduce, and are likewise genetically costly.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/print/263602
Quote
The modern cant is that homophobia is “socially constructed,” which means that it is instilled by indoctrination into the sheep-like masses by power elites who find it useful to their self-preservation.

As with “racism,” that is all nonsense. Attitudes so widespread, in so many times and places, call for some deeper, more coherent explanation than the sub-Marxist gibberish of crackpot French intellectuals. So what’s the explanation for homophobia?

...

Bering doesn’t have any results of his own to offer; he’s just calling for someone to take up where Gallup left off...

The Left was quick to react...

The real issue here for the Left, as Myers makes all too plain, isn’t whether homophobia is or is not adaptive, it’s whether anyone who wants to research such a topic, or even just ponder it, is fit to be admitted to polite society.

To put it differently, this is not a matter of scientific inquiry, it’s a matter of social-status assertion via moral one-upmanship and the outlawing of dissent from ideological dogmas. There’s a lot of that about.

Pity the author of the SA article.  Yes, he is a good lefty and homosexual, to boot.  He just hasn't learned that some topics are taboo in some primitive sub-cultures.   >:D

I'd suggest reading them, as they also provide a quick & dirty primer on what is called, nowadays, "evolutionary psychology."

That intersects another post I read about the rationality of anti-intellectualism:
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/117902/
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2400310
Quote
Part of the problem is that the American distrust of intellectualism is itself not the irrational thing that those sympathetic to intellectuals would like to think...Scientists have failed to resist politicization across the board, and the standards of what constitutes science continues to shift from a living, vibrant, thoughtful understanding of the purposes and ways of science to a scelerotic hide-bound form-over-substance version of science where papers are too often written to either explicitly attract grants or to confirm someone’s political beliefs…


So, I see two main topics of interest (along with several others):

1. "...whether or not people’s aversion to homosexuality...is a product of natural selection or, alternatively, a culturally constructed, transmitted bias."

This really is not all-encompassing query, but more like, "What color is the object, black or white?" which leaves out all the other possible colors ["Chartreuse!"].  There are more than the two possibilities, but science is not equipped to examine some of them.

2. The use of social pressure by politicized sub-groups to inhibit scientific inquiry.

I am reminded of Galileo's scientific colleagues(1), who tossed similar arguments at him, instead of addressing the substance.



I do expect a lot of "tl;dr" responses.  That would be a pity.







(1) No, the Roman Catholics did not go a-hunting Galileo.  They had to be prodded into action.  G's competitors agitated to get the RC church to take a gander at his cosmology.  FTR, the Pope at the time was a buddy of G's and quite, ah, "inquisitive" his own self.
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roo_ster

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White Horseradish

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 03:42:37 PM »
I'd say that the fact that there has been more than one culture in history that was tolerant of homosexuality would point to the aversion being cultural rather than evolutionary.

Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2011, 03:46:02 PM »
oh my  you are an evil man.  am i gonna have fun with this....
be right back  gotta bait another forum with this
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2011, 04:06:45 PM »
I'd say that the fact that there has been more than one culture in history that was tolerant of homosexuality would point to the aversion being cultural rather than evolutionary.



IOW, "tl;dr"

oh my  you are an evil man.

I live but to serve. 

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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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seeker_two

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2011, 04:28:32 PM »
I'll ask the same thing here that I ask those who believe homosexuality is genetic.....if it is, what happens when some geneticist finds a cure for it?......  =|
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2011, 06:03:32 PM »
I'll ask the same thing here that I ask those who believe homosexuality is genetic.....if it is, what happens when some geneticist finds a cure for it?......  =|

I could have a lot of fun playing devil's advocate with this one, but I'll try to resist the almost overwhelming urge.
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MillCreek

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2011, 06:47:48 PM »
I'll ask the same thing here that I ask those who believe homosexuality is genetic.....if it is, what happens when some geneticist finds a cure for it?......  =|

Or if science finds a way to change sexual orientation at will.  You are gay today, heterosexual next week, bisexual next month.  I have read several science fiction novels/stories with a similar premise.  Sometimes the ability to change orientation is forced, as in a government changing the orientation of most everyone gay, as a means of controlling over-population.  

I have seen a somewhat similar debate over the concept of implanting cochlear implants into profoundly deaf children shortly after birth, so that they can grow up hearing and speaking essentially normally.  This would mean the end of 'deaf culture', and a lot of deaf people are comparing this sort of medical intervention to forced sterilization or genocide that would eradicate a population.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 06:52:21 PM by MillCreek »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2011, 06:56:05 PM »
Or if science finds a way to change sexual orientation at will.  You are gay today, heterosexual next week, bisexual next month.  I have read several science fiction novels/stories with a similar premise.  Sometimes the ability to change orientation is forced, as in a government changing the orientation of most everyone gay, as a means of controlling over-population.  

I have seen a somewhat similar debate over the concept of implanting cochlear implants into profoundly deaf children shortly after birth, so that they can grow up hearing and speaking essentially normally.  This would mean the end of 'deaf culture', and a lot of deaf people are comparing this sort of medical intervention to forced sterilization or genocide that would eradicate a population.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: You're right. That is a very similar debate. Can you provide any links to the "end of deaf culture" nonsense?
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MillCreek

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Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

mtnbkr

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2011, 07:00:36 PM »
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: You're right. That is a very similar debate. Can you provide any links to the "end of deaf culture" nonsense?

Being nearby, I remember the 2006 protests, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaudet_University#Deaf_President_Now_.281988.29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaf_culture#Values_and_beliefs

Chris

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2011, 07:07:56 PM »
the deaf community has very strong feelings and are not shy.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Perd Hapley

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 07:09:20 PM »
Yeah, I googled it all by myself (thank you very much  :P ) and found some amusing bits.

That treating deafness as a disability "sends a message to the Deaf that they are of lesser worth." Of course you could only have that opinion if you believed that the disable are of lesser worth. Who's the bigot now?

One person laments that hearing mothers can shout things to their hearing kids without ever turning away from the stove; but if they were still deaf, they would be forced to face each other in the more intimate communication of sign language. Never mind that a kid without a cochlear implant will have no communication - at all - with hundreds or thousands of people they might have otherwise connected with. Then there's the whole getting run over by a truck because you couldn't hear it coming sort of thing.

 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:  But, yeah, pretty similar to the whole notion that helping homosexuals straighten themselves out is some sort of hate crime.
http://blackchristiannews.com/news/2011/04/apple-and-the-battle-for-free-speech.html
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MillCreek

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2011, 07:13:01 PM »
  But, yeah, pretty similar to the whole notion that helping homosexuals straighten themselves out is some sort of hate crime.

So you think that homosexuals need to be straightened out, is that your premise? Who else, in your opinion, needs to be straightened out?
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

seeker_two

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2011, 07:20:21 PM »

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:  But, yeah, pretty similar to the whole notion that helping homosexuals straighten themselves out is some sort of hate crime.

So you think that homosexuals need to be straightened out, is that your premise? Who else, in your opinion, needs to be straightened out?


I think that fistful's statement is akin to my own question.....no position stated, but definitely food for thought....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2011, 07:23:20 PM »
That treating deafness as a disability "sends a message to the Deaf that they are of lesser worth." Of course you could only have that opinion if you believed that the disable are of lesser worth. Who's the bigot now?

Wow. Just. Wow.  

Really?

I don't suppose it would occur to you that people might wish to guard against a specific message being sent because it, um, IS, rather than because they hold it deeply themselves?

If I acknowledge that people have historically treated Jews as inferior, does that mean I think Jews are inferior?  If I acknowledge that people with mental illness are highly stigmatized and tend to be treated as histrionic losers who just need to man up, does that mean that I stigmatize people with mental illness, because I believe we are histrionic losers who just need to man up?

If I acknowledge the presence of the 600 pound gorilla in the room, does that mean I'm straight out of Planet of the Apes?  

Monkeyleg

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2011, 07:34:54 PM »
Quote
If I acknowledge the presence of the 600 pound gorilla in the room, does that mean I'm straight out of Planet of the Apes?

Nope. King King, maybe. ;

This thread really has the potential to get ugly. I hope it stays polite.

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2011, 08:09:32 PM »
I hereby submit a WAG that may be tangential to these articles: A culture's acceptance of homosexuality is inversely proportional to its birth rate. IOW, high birth rate, homosexuality less acceptable. Lower birth rate, more acceptable. No idea why, but it seems to correlate.

grampster

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2011, 08:45:10 PM »
The one thing that bothers me the most is the over and misuse of the term homophobia.  A phobia is a fear, yet the word is used as an accusatory perjorative.  It is a shame how words are misused in this way.  That particular misuse cause divisiveness and oddly those doing a good deal of the the dividing now a days call themselves progressives.   

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seeker_two

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2011, 08:58:20 PM »

If I acknowledge the presence of the 600 pound gorilla in the room, does that mean I'm straight out of Planet of the Apes?  

No....but I'd ask why you seem pretty focused on it.....have you got something against gorillas?.....or are you prejudiced about big people?........
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

roo_ster

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2011, 09:05:20 PM »
Nope. King King, maybe. ;

This thread really has the potential to get ugly. I hope it stays polite.

Heck, I hope someone posts anything remotely related to the OP.

So far, no one has engaged the issues in the OP, even tangentially.  Yes, thread drift at APS is a feature, not a bug, but to "go off on a tangent" means one was once on the circumference.  "Thread drift" requires one once was nearby.  It is like a whole thread of non sequitur.  We're already past Planet of the Apes and are quickly approaching The Black Hole.



Quote
So, I see two main topics of interest (along with several others):

1. "...whether or not people’s aversion to homosexuality...is a product of natural selection or, alternatively, a culturally constructed, transmitted bias."

This really is not all-encompassing query, but more like, "What color is the object, black or white?" which leaves out all the other possible colors ["Chartreuse!"].  There are more than the two possibilities, but science is not equipped to examine some of them.

2. The use of social pressure by politicized sub-groups to inhibit scientific inquiry.

I am reminded of Galileo's scientific colleagues(1), who tossed similar arguments at him, instead of addressing the substance.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2011, 09:08:42 PM »
Missed ZOB's post.  Yes it is tangential.  Best we've got, so far. 
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roo_ster

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BridgeRunner

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2011, 09:10:24 PM »
Meh, I thought about it.  Even started writing it.  Decided I didn't want to spend a lot of time on it, stopped.  :shrug:

grampster

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2011, 09:37:39 PM »
The whole OP was very intellectual and smart.  Not being of that persuasion (intellectual and smart, that is) I don't have anything to offer but nebulousness, thus the tangent. :angel:
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2011, 09:51:48 PM »
How does "sending the message" that deaf people can't hear in any way biased or derogatory?
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Is Aversion to Homosexuality Adaptive?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2011, 10:02:38 PM »
I think its a cultural aversion.

From a sociologic standpoint, sexual deviance (any sexual activity outside the 'norm' defined here by vanillia hetrosexual acts) is a part of being human, so having people who are primarly wired for such behavior would serve as a kind of relief valve for tension created by the simple fact that humans are sexually devient pretty much across the board.

Many cultures don't put it in the spotlight or accept them as mainstream, but have definate subcultures that are accepted, to a certain degree. I can't remember were it is but somewhere in southeast asia, there is an accepted form of transgender, where a young boy from many familys is raised as a girl, with the sole purpose of growing up as the designated transgender member of the family.
India actually has a religious caste of homosexuals/transgender that are universially abused but also considered holy.
And we all know about the Romans, who took it a step further and encouraged homosexuality within the ranks to provide added incentive for the soliders to fight together.

Basivally, my theroy would be that historically, cultures don't really like sexual deviance, but must accept it to a certain degree, so they keep it controled on the fringes of society.

I'd like to see what happens when a culture manages to openly accept human sexuality in its entirity. From an acedemic standpoint, it would be interesting.
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