Author Topic: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin  (Read 54048 times)

Angel Eyes

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2011, 04:28:26 PM »
I was attacked by a cat once, does that count?

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Scout26

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2011, 05:08:51 PM »
Before this thread goes all Monty Phython... In the Permit Carry bill, is there a non-resident permit ?  And if so what hoops do you have to jump through to get one ?

I'd really prefer not to go to Centre Co. PA to renew my permit.
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Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2011, 05:14:37 PM »
Before this thread goes all Monty Phython... In the Permit Carry bill, is there a non-resident permit ?  And if so what hoops do you have to jump through to get one ?

I'd really prefer not to go to Centre Co. PA to renew my permit.

If I read it right there's a reciprocity set up, basically if they accept Wisconsin's, Wisconsin will accept theirs.

Wait, are you an out-of-stater living in and parasitically feeding off the resources of true Wisconsinites?

Cause I don't know about that, other than shame on you.  =D

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2011, 07:30:04 PM »
The last two or three bills as originally written provided instant reciprocity with all issuing states. That provision was one of the first gutted in each legislative session.

Please get people to keep pressure on the Repub's to keep that provision in the bill. I'd like to be able to carry legally (for a change) when I'm in Wisconsin (although now with my mom and dad gone, I won't be there very often).

AJ Dual

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2011, 12:57:38 AM »
What I'm now understanding from the NRA CCW bill workshops held at the local Cabela's store is that they want ideally to pass BOTH bills. With two bills, I just assumed "one or the other", I was stuck in the "box" and honestly just didn't consider that passing both bills would be the two-tier system with permitless carry for everyone, but still having optional permits like AZ and AK has.

I still think the constitutional bill is a long shot, and could very well still just be a throw away distraction to draw fire from the anti's to let the shall-issue bill through cleanly, however I'm much more optimistic that they're actually serious about it.  =)

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Scout26

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2011, 11:49:48 PM »
If I read it right there's a reciprocity set up, basically if they accept Wisconsin's, Wisconsin will accept theirs.

Wait, are you an out-of-stater living in and parasitically feeding off the resources of true Wisconsinites?

Cause I don't know about that, other than shame on you.  =D



No, *Charlie Brown sigh* I live in Illinois .

My folks live in Indiana and I have friends that I visit in Missouri (NOT Fistful), so as long as I have a permit from somewhere in the known universe I could legally carry in those states.   Pennsylvania's was $25 and the Centre Co. Sheriff (denny nau) was very pro-2A. You could mail in your app, a copy of your FOID, a check and get your permit in a week or so.   Good in ~17 states, but primarily the two I visit.  Pennsylvania changed the law this year.  No more mail in apps.  You have to appear in person.  It's 596 miles one way.  Hard to justify with gas at $4.00+ per gallon.   

I could get either a UT or FL, but it's like $175+ for a Utah permit or $200+ for Florida once you pay for the class, then getting fingerprinted, and then those state's fees.

That's why I asked whether either Wisconsin bill will have Non-resident permits.  Wisconsin could make a killing selling permits to those of us on the other side of the Cheddar Curtain, aka Flatlanders or FIB's.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2011, 12:24:31 AM »
No, *Charlie Brown sigh* I live in Illinois .

My folks live in Indiana and I have friends that I visit in Missouri (NOT Fistful),

 =(   :'(
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2011, 11:19:42 PM »
Here's another gem from this evening:

******

CONCEALED CARRY

Proposal opens dangerous box

The Wisconsin Legislature twice has passed a concealed-carry bill, and twice it was vetoed by then-Gov. Jim Doyle. It is clear that Gov. Scott Walker will approve some form of a gun bill, and that concerns me.

I am not alone on this. The vast majority of law enforcement personnel is strongly against this legislation also. The bill proposed by Sen. Pam Galloway is irresponsible and ridiculous, allowing just about anyone to carry a gun with no training and not having to get a permit from the state.

How ironic that guns would be banned from the state Capitol and other government buildings but would be allowed just about anywhere else, including in plain sight in a car.

How ironic that hunters need training before being issued a license, but not the rest of the population who would want to carry a gun.

What about the argument that guns are needed for protection? Most people who use a gun, other than for hunting and sport, use one as a form of aggression, not protection. What is to prevent a person from using a gun in a road rage situation or after having had too much to drink if a gun is so easily available?

I was proud that Wisconsin was one of only two states that does not have this Wild West philosophy. I think whatever form of this concealed-carry law is passed will only open up a very dangerous Pandora's box.

Sue Schmitt
Wauwatosa

****************

Ms. Schmitt is still reading from the 1990's Brady Bunch talking points. Doesn't she know that the 2000-2011 version is to say that guns are too complicated for regular folks to operate?

I didn't realize that I owned a gun to use as a form of aggression. I must have been sleepwalking the last time I shot somebody.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2011, 11:54:33 PM »
Ms. Schmitt is still reading from the 1990's Brady Bunch talking points.

Proponents of carry restrictions are always talking like this is the 1990s, and concealed carry laws are something new and potentially dangerous. I suppose they get away with this because most Americans are unaware of the progress made in the past 25 years.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2011, 12:23:55 AM »
Quote
Proponents of carry restrictions are always talking like this is the 1990s, and concealed carry laws are something new and potentially dangerous. I suppose they get away with this because most Americans are unaware of the progress made in the past 25 years.

True, but the irony is in the turnabout. In the 1990's, the Brady Bunch argued that guns made it too easy to kill people. As the number of shall-issue states grew, they changed their talking points to say that guns are too difficult for the average person to use for defense.

One point I forgot to address about the above letter is Ms. Schmitt's statement that the " vast majority of law enforcement personnel is strongly against this legislation..." Wisconsin's CCW bill has (or at least had when I was there) the support of the Milwaukee Police Association, the Wisconsin chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police, and the Wisconsin chapter of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America. In 2006 the bill's authors also finally got the support from the Wisconsin State Troopers Association after they made a couple of minor amendments.

I think Ms. Schmitt just awoke from a coma.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2011, 12:43:10 AM »
True, but the irony is in the turnabout. In the 1990's, the Brady Bunch argued that guns made it too easy to kill people. As the number of shall-issue states grew, they changed their talking points to say that guns are too difficult for the average person to use for defense.

One point I forgot to address about the above letter is Ms. Schmitt's statement that the " vast majority of law enforcement personnel is strongly against this legislation..." Wisconsin's CCW bill has (or at least had when I was there) the support of the Milwaukee Police Association, the Wisconsin chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police, and the Wisconsin chapter of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America. In 2006 the bill's authors also finally got the support from the Wisconsin State Troopers Association after they made a couple of minor amendments.

I think Ms. Schmitt just awoke from a coma.

On the latter point, all she needs to do is make things up or state what she imagines to be true. Facts just confuse things.

On the former point, I noticed something similar. Back when the argument was over possession of guns, I read a couple of articles that said most rapes occur outside the home, therefore having a gun will not help a rape victim. More recently, when the argument had shifted to carrying guns, an anti-gunner claimed that most rapes are committed in the home, so carry will not help.

But of course, the anti's are always contradicting themselves on the skill level required by guns. They have never wavered from the belief that violent people find guns easy to use, while peace-loving people find them almost useless (because the bad man will just take it away). They would have us believe that a man defending himself from a home invasion will have his gun used against him, while a man experiencing road rage will maintain a deadly control over his weapon.

But I'm sure you've heard all this before.
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Tallpine

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2011, 10:21:24 AM »
Quote
Ms. Schmitt is still reading from the 1990's Brady Bunch talking points.

And so is our own damn governor  :mad:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Scout26

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2011, 04:21:48 PM »
So can someone answer my question.  I've gone to several different WI carry sites, (including WGO  [barf]), and can't find an answer anywhere.

Will Wisconsin be issuing non-resident permits ?

And if so how, and how much ?
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2011, 06:23:07 PM »
If they stick to the bill as written in 2005 and 2007, there was no provision for issuing non-resident permits. I just looked through the 2011 bill, and it appears to be the same as the previous bills.

You'd think the Republicans would take advantage of their numbers and insert a non-resident permit clause.

It's not too late to call legislators.

If nothing else, there's this paragraph:

Quote
Treats a permit, license, approval, or other authorization issued by another state in the same manner as a license issued under this bill if the individual who possesses the authorization submitted to a background check to determine if the individual is prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Since no mention of residency of the other issuing state is mentioned anywhere in the bill, I take that to mean that non-resident permits would be valid, so you could get an FL or UT non-resident permit to carry in WI.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2011, 06:32:30 PM »
Yeah, with reciprocity why pay for yet another permit and give your info to a state not your own?

If you can't get one in your own state, why not just get a Utah or FL which already cover damn near every state and have the system down?
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Monkeyleg

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2011, 07:07:53 PM »
Yeah, with reciprocity why pay for yet another permit and give your info to a state not your own?

If you can't get one in your own state, why not just get a Utah or FL which already cover damn near every state and have the system down?

True enough. Also, if the bill goes through as written with no training requirements, but did have a provision non-resident permits, most shall-issue states wouldn't recognize the WI permits because of the lack of training.

Scout26

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2011, 11:24:52 PM »
Yeah, with reciprocity why pay for yet another permit and give your info to a state not your own?

If you can't get one in your own state, why not just get a Utah or FL which already cover damn near every state and have the system down?

Because I don't want to pay the ~$200 and a day+ to do the training and then get fingerprinted (electronically and only certain LE agencies will do and then they charge for it and give you the hairy eyeball for getting a UT or FL CCW permit, Welcome to the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Illinois.).  Like I said I could send in a app, a check for $25, a copy of my Illinois FOID and get a permit good for five years. 

*sigh*

Virginia'a or New Hampshire's is $100, I'll have to see whether their good for 4 or 5 years and go with the one that's the longest.

I do think that Wisconsin is missing out.  Think of all the FIB's and Flatlanders that cross the Cheddar Curtain and would pay to be able to CCW.   Another way for the State of Wisconsin to vac-u-suck more cash out of our wallets.... 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2011, 11:44:23 PM »
Quote
I do think that Wisconsin is missing out.  Think of all the FIB's and Flatlanders that cross the Cheddar Curtain and would pay to be able to CCW.   Another way for the State of Wisconsin to vac-u-suck more cash out of our wallets....

Oh, absolutely. Wisconsin almost never misses a chance to grab any money from anyone the politicians can find. In this case, though, there's enough people afraid of what Wisconsin citizens will do when carrying. Imagine what some out of state people would do! They might shoot people just for fun when they're on vacation in Door County!

From January of 1990 through April 30, 2011, Florida issued 1,976,774 permits. (Interestingly, only 5,491 were ever revoked for crimes after licensure, of which 168 were revoked for any crimes involving a firearm). At $75 a pop plus $42 for the FBI fingerprint card, that's some pretty decent walking around money for the state legislature. Hell, that kind of money could almost pay for a trip for Michelle Obama and her friends.

KD5NRH

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2011, 11:49:40 PM »
Think of all the FIB's and Flatlanders that cross the Cheddar Curtain and would pay to be able to CCW.

There's a company that specializes in helping people who live in areas like that.

http://www.uhaul.com/


Scout26

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2011, 12:55:35 AM »
There's a company that specializes in helping people who live in areas like that.

http://www.uhaul.com/



Wisconsin is where FIB's go to vacation in the summer and shoot bambi in the fall.  They also go there in the winter to ice fish, snowmobile and drink.   Spring is about the only time we don't head north.   Wisconsin is Illinois' (especially the Chicagoland area's) Playground. 
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2011, 01:04:12 AM »
Quote
Wisconsin is where FIB's go to vacation drink in the summer and shoot bambi drink in the fall.  They also go there in the winter to ice fish, snowmobile and drink.   Spring is about the only time we don't head north.   Wisconsin is Illinois' (especially the Chicagoland area's) Playground tavern.

Fixed it for you

Scout26

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2011, 02:17:40 AM »
Quote
Wisconsin is where FIB's go to vacation drink in the summer and shoot bambi drink in the fall.  They also go there in the winter to ice fish, snowmobile and drink.   Spring is about the only time we don't head north.   Wisconsin is Illinois' (especially the Chicagoland area's) Playground tavern.

Fixed it for you

Back when Wisconsin's drinking age was 18 and Illinois 21, even moreso.   I was one of them....
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

AJ Dual

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2011, 10:54:49 AM »
We'll still have to disarm at the IL border, but when WI finally passes CCW, it'll really be a nice addition to get some more security for my Yellow Margarine smuggling ring.  =D

(No, really, this was a popular pastime in WI up until 1967...)
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2011, 11:02:01 AM »
Quote
(No, really, this was a popular pastime in WI up until 1967...)

I remember it clearly and remember even more clearly when my dad didn't make an "oleo run", and I then had to knead the dye packets into that gray goop that the WI stores were allowed to sell.

WI has always been a socialist paradise, hasn't it?

AJ Dual

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Re: Pretzel logic on CCW in Wisconsin
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2011, 04:16:16 PM »
I remember it clearly and remember even more clearly when my dad didn't make an "oleo run", and I then had to knead the dye packets into that gray goop that the WI stores were allowed to sell.

WI has always been a socialist paradise, hasn't it?

Well, then, "Each should shoot according to their abilities, and each should receive ammunition according to their needs."   =D
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