Unusual household wiring circuit

[K Frame]

"I'm seeing, in new construction, gfi breakers in the main box"

You're also starting to see arc fault breakers used a lot more commonly, too.

And check out the prices on them -- $30 to $50 per 15 amp single pole breaker seems to be pretty common right now.

When they first became required by code for bedroom circuits (1999) in new construction, I was seeing prices as high as $120 to $180 PER breaker. That's about where prices were back in the 1970s with GFCIs.

[Brad Johnson]

"Daisy chaining outlets along a circuit is commonplace. Has been for many decades."

Sockets that are in proximity and in a horizontal (same floor) progression, such as around the perimeter of a room, or on a wall common to two rooms, yes.

Read the description of Monkeyleg's situation, and mine, again, and you'll see that horizontal proximity is NOT the determining factor of why they're chained together.

If I'm reading his description correctly, the sockets that are protected by the GFCI are chained together VERTICALLY over at least two floors in a manner in which proximity doesn't seem to be a consideration, either.

In my house, my GFCI protected sockets are chained together over THREE floors. Same, I think, with Mtnbkr's house.

I know for a fact that in my house the bathroom sockets are the only ones that are chained together vertically. All other sockets are chained together in horizontal proximity.

I'd bet SERIOUS money that the same is true of Mtnbkr's house and Monkeyleg's house.

Vertical chaining of outlets that are related only by purpose of application (wet use locations) is a dead giveaway that that circuit run was purposely installed as a GFCI-protected circuit, in Monkey Leg's case, most likely when the house was originally built, or when it was substantially remodeled (although that would have probably required a full gut remodeling).

Didn't even occur to me that his was a two story.  Doh.

Brad

[Monkeyleg]

Mike, ours is a one-story house (although the wiring goes up to the attic and then drops down into the room where the outlets are.

The master bath (west side of the house, just south of the garage) and the guest bath (east side of the house, as far as you can get from the garage GFI, probably at least sixty feet) are tied into the garage GFI outlet.

The kitchen, which is maybe 25-30 feet east of the garage GFI, has its own GFI outlet next to the sink.

[K Frame]

OK, it's not a two story, it's a one story... From your description I was thinking 1 above ground and 1 below ground (two story).

When was it built approximately?

Is there other wiring that is run through the attic?

Depending on the age of the house, it could be a remodel job, or it could have been a previous owner who was conscious about stuff like this. Or it could be a purpose built situation.

But, running a single dedicated circuit for all GFCI protected sockets with the GFCI near the breaker box was a very common way of doing it when prices on GFCIs were high.

And, no matter what, from your description, the bathroom outlets aren't even remotely close to being in horizontal proximity, so that sort of destroys that theory.

Having a single GFCI in the kitchen for the sockets there is logical too. Is the first one in line, so if the GFCI trips every thing goes out.

The kitchen sockets are an independent, horizonal loop, and I THINK that code has required 20 amp socket circuits in kitchens since the 1960s. Bathrooms only, I think, require a 15 amp circuit.

[K Frame]

OK, I just noticed that your house was built in 1991. IIRC Mtnbrk's house was built right around that time and is done the same way.

It makes a LITTLE less sense to have done it this way that late, but it still makes sense.

GFCI outlets were coming down in price nicely by then (IIRC I paid about $12 for a GFCI replacement around that time) and wire costs were starting to go up.

But, by that time, they had been doing it that way for almost 20 years, so maybe it was a habit.

I don't know what code says, but it could also be that bathroom sockets require their own circuit, so it might have been done to avoid chewing up two or more places in the breaker box.

I know that even if the entire house is wired in 20 amp, the kitchen circuit still has to be an independent 20 amp circuit.

Question for you...

Are your sure the kitchen GFCI doesn't control the socket where the refrigerator is plugged in?

Test it. If it is, that's not a good thing.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

some stuff is grandfathered in,  as in grandpa the electrician learned to do it one way and hes not changing gosh darn it.

[Triphammer]

The current requirement for kitchen circuits is there must be two 20 amp cicuits shared between the dining room & the kitchen. Requiring two GFI's to protect the kitchen. Plus dedicated circuits for refrigerator, dish washer, and a couple others I can't think of at the moment.
Houses I've seen that were originally wired in the thirties & fourties seemed have circuits that ran all over the house. One would start at the fuse box & run to the only ceiling fixture in every room until they ran out of that coil. Then another would start @ the fuse box & run to the remaining ceiling fixtures in other rooms. One or two outlets were then run off the box in the ceiling. Finding an "open" when an individual circuit runs from basement to third floor & everywhere in between is a nightmare. Knob & tube is even worse. Glad I never got into that, much.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't know what code says, but it could also be that bathroom sockets require their own circuit, so it might have been done to avoid chewing up two or more places in the breaker box.

I know that even if the entire house is wired in 20 amp, the kitchen circuit still has to be an independent 20 amp circuit.

I don't know about 1991, but the current electrical code requires TWO 20-amp circuits for the kitchen. No requirement for bathrooms -- they can be on their own circuit, they can be on the same circuit(s) as adjacent bedrooms, or they can be shared with whatever the electrician wants (other than the kitchen).

Current code also requires arc fault for bedrooms. (Not required in 1991.) Look for the next edition of the code to require arc fault protection on every circuit in the house. I can't decide if I think that's a good idea ... or massive overkill.

[K Frame]

Arc fault is massive overkill on every circuit in the house. It will, with AFCIs still costing quite a bit of money, really add to the wiring costs of a new house.

[Hawkmoon]

Arc fault is massive overkill on every circuit in the house. It will, with AFCIs still costing quite a bit of money, really add to the wiring costs of a new house.

I agree, but the state electrical inspector in my state tells me it's coming. Remember, the National Electric Code is published by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), and the fire guys don't care how much something costs. They are only too happy to spend other people's money.

The other thing that's just over the horizon is residential sprinklers in ALL new homes. Want to build in a place that doesn't have public water? They don't care -- they want you to put in a big tank with a pump. Oh -- and an emergency generator in case the power fails, so the pump will still operate. In my state it's already here for "multi-family" residences. The problem is, multi-family is anything more than two. So a friend owns a three-story, two family house in an older part of the nearby city. He wanted to convert the third story to a third apartment. The only way he can do that now is if he installs sprinklers in the entire structure.

[zahc]

Our house inspector told us that AFCI were current code, but our house is grandfathered in. We live in TX.

Vertical chaining of outlets that are related only by purpose of application (wet use locations) is a dead giveaway that that circuit run was purposely installed as a GFCI-protected circuit

I agree. When I wired up my darkroom I had to re-configure the wiring several times to ensure that the GFCI would not trip when downstream outlets were used. What is electrically valid is not necessarily GFCI-valid. You have to pay attention when you incorporate GFCIs with protected downstream outlets.

[Boomhauer]

I'm seeing, in new construction, gfi breakers in the main box

We have GFCI breakers in many, many of our circuits at work...systems that were installed in the '60s and '70s and have been retrofitted with GFCI breakers.