Author Topic: Changing the system...?  (Read 5113 times)

Tallpine

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Changing the system...?
« on: June 09, 2011, 04:00:47 PM »
When yet another and another government abuse happens, somebody always pipes in about changing the system from the top, presumably politics.

The way I see it there are two options:

Vote for Candidate A who wants to take away your guns.

Vote for Candidate B who wants to take away your drugs (and bust down doors doing it).

Or sometimes you can find a middle-of-the-road candidate who wants to take away guns and take away drugs.  ;/


There are letters and phone calls, but 99% have their minds made up already - which may even be as it should be, or else they are negating a campaign promise.

Otherwise, except for a few freaks (otherwise known as libertarians) there really aren't any options.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MicroBalrog

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 05:26:21 PM »
Have the left-wing ever nominated, and elected, a candidate, who seriously wants to legalize even one drug to a major office?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Tallpine

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011, 05:31:33 PM »
Have the left-wing ever nominated, and elected, a candidate, who seriously wants to legalize even one drug to a major office?

No, and neither have I seen much effort (at least on the national level) by the right-wing to repeal any gun control laws.

It's a ratchet effect, and if one didn't know better one might think they both had the same goals.  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

AJ Dual

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2011, 05:32:00 PM »
My voting pattern, in the absence of VIABLE third-way/Libertarian alternatives is simple.

I CAN fight in a revolution with guns and money.

With gay marriage, abortion, environmentalism, union labor... not so much.

The government that keeps things loose so you have a chance to fight them/kill them should you one day find yourself with your back against a wall is the one you want.

I promise not to duck.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2011, 05:37:08 PM »
No, and neither have I seen much effort (at least on the national level) by the right-wing to repeal any gun control laws.

It's a ratchet effect, and if one didn't know better one might think they both had the same goals.  =|

Let me try.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35484383/ns/us_news-life/t/new-law-allows-loaded-guns-national-parks/
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6443

Should the right-wing do better? Could they? I think so. Are they often hobnobbed by their own shortcomings? I think so too. But it is misleading to say there's no effort at all.

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

AJ Dual

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2011, 05:39:05 PM »
Agreed.
I promise not to duck.

Tallpine

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2011, 05:44:36 PM »
Oh, don't get me wrong - I would and do vote almost exclusively Republican.

But the effects of the War on Drugs are hurting everyone, or will eventually.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2011, 06:00:28 PM »
Have the left-wing ever nominated, and elected, a candidate, who seriously wants to legalize even one drug to a major office?


kinda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Schmoke
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

AJ Dual

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2011, 06:23:52 PM »
Oh, don't get me wrong - I would and do vote almost exclusively Republican.

But the effects of the War on Drugs are hurting everyone, or will eventually.

No disagreement there. God only knows what the WOD could have paid for instead, or, even more novel, just been left in the pockets of the taxpayers.
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grampster

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 10:57:10 PM »
When getting elected to office ceases being a career rather than a foray into public service for a period of time, nothing will change.

That's why we need term limits.  Two 4 year elected terms for the federal House and go back to having Senators appointed, but by the State Legislature, two from each state, one from each party for one 6 year term.  Pay 'em exceptionally well for their time and build 'em a dormitory where they live, eat and sleep.  Cut their staff down to 5 people each.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 11:59:47 PM »
When getting elected to office ceases being a career rather than a foray into public service for a period of time, nothing will change.

That's why we need term limits.  Two 4 year elected terms for the federal House and go back to having Senators appointed, but by the State Legislature, two from each state, one from each party for one 6 year term.  Pay 'em exceptionally well for their time and build 'em a dormitory where they live, eat and sleep.  Cut their staff down to 5 people each.

+ Effing 1

I've always like the idea of having Casa De Fed right next door to the capitol building. I actually found living right next to/on my job sight (USS Iwo Jima, CID Corry, NIOC Colorado) very convenient, not to mention I got to sleep in an extra hour cause I didn't have to make a commute. Plus the money saved on transportation and such.

As for the term limits, do you mean about 8 years total time?
2 President (8 )
1 Prez (4) + 2 House (4)
1 Senate (6) + 1 House (2)
4 House (8 )

BTW: As of Jan. 2010, the tax-free base pay of a basic congressman is $174,000. I'd say they're paid rather well already, so cut the per diem and such, give them, and their reduced staff the equivalent of Congressional base barracks.

Edit: Dumb little sunglasses smiley.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 12:25:48 AM by kgbsquirrel »

Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2011, 12:24:15 AM »
Two 4 year elected terms for the federal House and go back to having Senators appointed, but by the State Legislature, two from each state, one from each party for one 6 year term. 

4-year terms for Representatives? Put down the joint.

A Senator from each party? Never.
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grampster

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2011, 09:15:39 AM »
2 year terms for Representatives means they only do 2 things:  Work half the day passing pork to get re-elected and the other half grubbing for favors from and selling their office to lobbyists to get re-elected.  Elect 'em for two 4 year terms and maybe we'd get a bit of governance squeezed in.

"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Perd Hapley

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2011, 10:03:46 AM »
I'm not disagreeing with term limits, just the length of term.

2 year terms for Representatives means they only do 2 things:  Work half the day passing pork to get re-elected and the other half grubbing for favors from and selling their office to lobbyists to get re-elected.  Elect 'em for two 4 year terms and maybe we'd get a bit of governance squeezed in.

They are supposed to worry about getting reelected. That's how we keep the fear of God in them. Four year terms would work against that, making them less accountable. Like you said, they would do more governing. That is a bad thing.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 04:03:24 PM by The artist formerly known as fistful »
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grampster

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2011, 10:19:06 AM »
Yeah, I am a big fan of gridlock.  I agree with you.  I'm like most sentient Americans; frustrated, so I day dream.  I just guess it boils down to what ole Ben Franklin said:  "We gave you a Republic, madam, if you can keep it."  Too many people vote for all of the wrong candidates for all of the wrong reasons and we are paying the price for that.

Cough, cough...pass the bowl. :P...Or as those great American philosopher/poets once said..."Don't bogart that joint, my friend.  Pass it over to me."
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

AJ Dual

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2011, 10:28:57 AM »
Repeal the 17th(? too lazy to check) amendment, and put the Senate back to the vote of the state legislatures instead of the popular vote. We lost a big chunk of Republicanism on that one.
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Tallpine

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2011, 10:35:34 AM »
At any rate, it's probably true that most of congress ought to be residing in "federal housing"  ;)

Liberty just doesn't seem to be part of the equation anymore.  The struggle between left/right is just over gaining the power to oppress some portion of the population, and who are we going to steal the money from to do it with?
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MicroBalrog

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2011, 10:39:19 AM »
This whole obsession with altering the rules to make the system fairer is a distraction.

Look at every single country in the world that's not an utter tyrannical pile of waste, and you will discover a welfare state of some manner of description, with high taxes, regulation of every form of human activity, and so on, and so forth – no matter what shape their constitution takes and for how long their legislators are elected.

This suggests that the issue is not with the manner in which your legislators are elected. In truth, the issue is that in the first half of the 20th century, Progressives took over Western civilization. Some of them are right-wing progressives, from Frum and Kristol to Medved and Levin. Others are left-wing progressives, from Reinhold Niebuhr to Michael Moore. They are all the enemy. The radical left are probably less hostile to you than smooth-talking evildoers like Frum.

Over the years, progressive intellectuals, corporate big-shots (anybody who says 'he is rich, he must be for capitalism' is either an enemy or a fool), and politicians have created a semi-formal system, ranging through our universities, to our newspapers, schools, major banks, corporations, government offices, that is self-sustaining. This is not to say they 'cheated' – every society, including the one we want, will have informal self-sustaining mechanisms. But this is to say destroying progressivism is a hard work which will require risks, and effort.

The democratic system of rule is, informally, more conservative in the dictionary sense – more averse to change in the long term than a totalitarian system. A totalitarian system can be revolutionized when the dictator dies and is replaced by another dictator. Revolution in a democracy or a Republic takes decades and generations, placating numerous interests.... sound familiar?

If we altered the constitution in any way you like, and fired all members of both houses, and held an election tomorrow, progressives would still win. The majority of people elected would be in favor of a graduated income tax, a welfare state, and so on, and so forth. Hard work would be required to alter that, and applying that hard work to alter the election system will be simply a waste of resources.

It is not enough to merely vote. It is not enough to merely vote in the primaries.

How many people attend local meetings for their political party? How many volunteer for their favorite candidate before the elections? Answer this, and you will know precisely why the status-quo remains.



Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

TommyGunn

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2011, 12:38:44 PM »
Repeal the 17th(? too lazy to check) amendment, and put the Senate back to the vote of the state legislatures instead of the popular vote. We lost a big chunk of Republicanism on that one.

We also lost a HUGE chunk of states' rights.  With state officials appointing senators, and thus having the power to renew or TKO their Washington careers, the states had a much greater say in federal politics.
Now if they want "fed $$$$" (tax monies returned from fedgov) they have to kowtow to the whims of the federal goon commitee.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

SteveT

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2011, 02:29:41 AM »
With the country as polarized as it is I don't see a Constitutional Amendment of any kind passing in the foreseeable future.


On a more positive note, do you know that there are 3 THREE bars in Antarctica?   One's open to anyone who can get there, and ones uber exclusive (and basically just a tent with a bar and booze)   Typing the word polarized made me think of this.   The internet has done strange things to my organic CPU.

Chuck Dye

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Re: Changing the system...?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2011, 04:33:18 AM »
...I would and do vote almost exclusively Republican.

Same here, except that I cannot remember voting to put a Republican in rather than to keep a Democrat out.  About the only good things I can say about Dubya are that he kept Gore and Kerry out and he was term limited.  Still haven't decided whether I approve of Roberts and Alito.
Gee, I'd love to see your data!