Author Topic: Interesting story about an American who worked at an Indian call center  (Read 15841 times)

Declaration Day

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« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 06:39:08 PM by Declaration Day »

HeroHog

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There is a GREAT bit by "Dead Trolls in a baggie" called "Internet Help Desk" that I always shared with new guys in the office. Check it out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LLTsSnGWMI
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 11:47:12 PM by HeroHog »
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RoadKingLarry

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Nothing I like better than calling our internal corporate tech support/test centers and getting a guy who's English is only marginally better than my Mandarin ( I don't speak a word of Chinese). Then I get a nasty-gram from my boss after (while really trying to be polite) asking the guy to repeat himself numerous times because I can't understand him. I was accused of being insensitive to corporate diversity ???. I've gotten to the point that if I need to call one of our test centers I just hang up and call back if I can't understand the person that answers the phone.
If you are going to put someone in a job where the main job is to talk on the phone to other technicians wouldn't it be a good thing to either use people that actually speak the predominant language they will be using or barring that get them some speech training.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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RocketMan

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It was getting difficult for us to communicate with our IT types in India, as well.  Very frustrating at times, especially when you have systems down that you have no access to, and production has come to a complete halt.
Like RKL we would have eventually gotten on the bad side of the corporate diversity folks.  What saved us was that everyone also had access to MS Communicator, and we started using that routinely by a sort of Gentleman's Agreement.  We'd start off with a conference call, and it's only real purpose was to get everyone up on Communicator.  Works well once we get it going, because there are no hard to decipher accents in text.
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280plus

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When I get one like that I ask for someone who can speak better English. Of course, I don't have "diversity" people breathing down my neck.
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RoadKingLarry

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When I get one like that I ask for someone who can speak better English. Of course, I don't have "diversity" people breathing down my neck.

It is pretty well supposed that such a request would likely lead to termination or at least severe discipline with my employer.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

cassandra and sara's daddy

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ara/aramark sent me to diversity training 3 times.  i think its a record.  once for being sexist  twice for being racist
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

280plus

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It is pretty well supposed that such a request would likely lead to termination or at least severe discipline with my employer.
Yep, I figured as much. In my case, I'm the customer so I can voice my disapproval with no fear of repercussion. It ain't my fault the effers put someone unintelligible on the phone. I feel for you though, that has got to suck.
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AJ Dual

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It is pretty well supposed that such a request would likely lead to termination or at least severe discipline with my employer.

Not if you knew how the phone system worked, and could make the call look like it was coming from any extension in the company.  :angel:
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Tallpine

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Heck, I can hardly understand these modern American kids thatrunalltheirwordstogetherealfast.  ;/

And then some years back, I was on a 4 or 5 way conference call including our customer from England.  Couldn't understand much they had to say, either.

I    might    be    a    soft    ware   in    gin    ear    but    I'm    still   an    old    south'rn    country    boy     ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Bogie

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It's threads like this one that make me wish that I was back at the Big Pharma Company.
 
It's a Bad Thing when you wander around a little, and forward unattended phones to someone you don't like.
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Hawkmoon

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There is a GREAT bit by "Dead Trolls in a baggie" called "Internet Help Desk" that I always shared with new guys in the office. Check it out!

http://www.deadtroll.com/new/new.html

Why does this link NOT take me to "Internet Help Desk" ... or to a site on which I can find anything of that title?
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lee n. field

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Heck, I can hardly understand these modern American kids thatrunalltheirwordstogetherealfast.  ;/

And then some years back, I was on a 4 or 5 way conference call including our customer from England.  Couldn't understand much they had to say, either.

I    might    be    a    soft    ware   in    gin    ear    but    I'm    still   an    old    south'rn    country    boy     ;)

Somewhere I read, wish I could remember where, an account of a conversation between someone from the American deep south speaking English, and a Scot, also speaking English.  They needed an interpreter.  Who was a German.
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lee n. field

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Why does this link NOT take me to "Internet Help Desk" ... or to a site on which I can find anything of that title?

YouToob'll get you there.
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Hawkmoon

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"Do you want the red one or the blue one?"

"Yes" seems to be a perfectly logical response, regardless of which one you want.

Jes' sayin'.

Not logical.

Grammatically correct, yes. Logical, no.
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GigaBuist

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I'm certainly not racist or protectionist.  I have no bloody idea why, but the Indians doing the outsourced work cannot do independent thought.

I have some thoughts.  I've been an IT professional for about 11 years now, and I've never really written anything on the web about Indians workers, though I've had my fair share of experience with them.  I never wanted anything I said to come back and bite me in the arse, but I'm getting out of the game, so I'll share.

For the record every single stupid choice I've seen an Indian programmer make I've also seen a Caucasian born and raised in the midwest make.  Their stories are pretty much the same:  went to college, got a degree, got a decent job making good money, and they just never see any reason to push themselves beyond that.  If they get booted during layoffs they'll just find another job in a large corporation where their less than stellar performance will be masked by others.

Of course, they have no idea their performance is being masked by others, but that's beside the point.

Generally speaking I think most people set out in life to try and earn a living a little better than their parents did.  Every generation wants to see a little bit of progress for themselves.  As it should be, in my opinion.  Tech gets better (on all fronts) worker productivity goes up, costs go down on the basics, and they should have a better life.

It's a whole heck of a lot easier to achieve that goal when your parents are doing blue-collar work in India than it is in America where blue-collar workers can make some pretty good coin.  So, in the US, you have to keep advancing up the ladder to make it happen.  Well, at least now you do.

I entered IT in 2000 nearly at the end of the dot-com bomb.  In 1998-1999 I was getting calls from recruiters halfway across the country promising me $50k/year or more for an entry level job.  With no degree.  There was a rush in the US where all sorts of idiots enrolled in computer science courses trying to cash in on this. It was absurd.  When it all came crashing down nobody wanted every Tom, Dick or Harry with a CS degree -- they wanted people with experience. Some kind of talent, not just a piece of paper.

India's still in that boom period.  More and more of this work is going over there and I doubt they've got the qualified people to fill them, so they'll take anybody with the right credentials.  Just like US firms in the dot-com era they've got a lot of idiots and (hopefully) a few stellar performers that can clean up the messes and get people on the right track.  When it crashes the trash will get weeded out, just as it did in the US.

So, that's my high level politically correct analysis.

On the other hand there are some obvious cultural differences.  Any technical discussion with an Indian is going to have the phrase "NO! NO! NO!" spoken in the middle of your sentences more than you'd think possible.  It would appear that complete thoughts are not exactly respected.  It's extremely annoying when everybody is on a conference call and you have no idea what the three of them are yelling at each other about on the other end.

Their ability to punt the problem down the line is only rivaled by Congress.  I've hammered down plenty of times with native US citizens on projects where the screwed the pooch and needed a hand to get out of it.  No problem.  It's what I do. However, I expect you to HELP me on it if I'm saving your arse.

I got roped into one project, as a sub-contractor, with no influence at all, and upon request from a project manager after I did all my assigned tasks, I introduced one LITTLE change into a giant .ASPX file written by the Indian team.  This was not in my original scope.  Suddenly every problem was my fault.  I stuck 12 lines into a 5,000 line file.  Suddenly I owned it because it broke their code.

Yeah, you wrote 3,000 lines of JavaScript that inappropriately referenced (hard coded object IDs) code-behind objects by their automatically generated names.  There isn't one single scrap of literature anywhere out there that says you should have done that dumb monkey crap but you did.  And now I have to fix it.  Yeah, I'm still pissed about that.  There were four of them that worked on that code and if it were my team I'd have nailed somebody's balls to the wall for trying that nonsense about 100 lines in.

And that gets me to my basic mantra on Indian programmers:  They work harder, not smarter.

Why?  I don't know. I see it in US programmers to, but just not as often.  They usually get weeded out quick.  I guess that goes back to the "boom" thing.  They do it because it's all that they know how to, and they're getting paid for it, and they're only going to change when it's no longer financially attractive to behave that way.

Hawkmoon

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When I get one like that I ask for someone who can speak better English. Of course, I don't have "diversity" people breathing down my neck.

I tried that. She said (in a VERY testy tone of voice), "Excuse me. I am speak English verrrry good."

My response to that was, "Fine. Now please connect me with your supervisor."

I was on hold for a very long time. The next voice was a male who said his name was Dave, with a decidedly American accent. I asked "Dave" where he was from. He laughed, and said, "My name really is Dave, and I'm not allowed to tell that I'm in St. Louis."
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280plus

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I've had some wonderful conversations with girls in Manila in the past. I immediately recognize the accent and start asking about how the PI are doing these days. Then I tell them to have a San Miguel for me. They always laugh. Them I can understand, some of those Indians though, I can't fathom why anyone would put them on the phone to talk to English speaking customers.
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RoadKingLarry

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Quote
My response to that was, "Fine. Now please connect me with your supervisor."

The last time I tried that the guy I was connected to spoke even worse English and had an attitude to boot.
Now, if I haven't given them any identifying info I just hang up and try again.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Antibubba

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I worked in a call center, and many Indians would transfer to me, their "supervisor" of choice.  It seems that many of their own "superiors" didn't have phone access.   :facepalm:  There were some truly insurmountable cultural chasms that the best educated of them could not fathom. 
Quote from: GigaBuist
And that gets me to my basic mantra on Indian programmers:  They work harder, not smarter.

That's one way to put it.  Another is that they are immersed in a massive system of systems that inherently do not work.  India is a massive bureaucratic mud pit where any progress is made in incremental steps by hundreds, if not thousands, of people.  I don't think they understand that Americans are accustomed to devices and systems that usually work right the first time, and most of the time after that.  They don't understand the frustration we experience if we have to call a second time to fix an issue, let alone ten times over the period of 2 weeks (which was all too common).  They also had no access to the devices they were trying to fix or sell, and could not understand that the manual and the equipment might differ. 

There were similar problems with the Philippine centers, too, but not as many.  The Filipinos were much more eager to try out their "American" phrases than the Indians; my favorite was when I would tell them I wanted to look over their notes and they'd say "No biggie".   :laugh:

It's one reason I'm not as worried about a Chinese ascendancy to superpower status as some, because the problem in China is worse in most ways.
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Tallpine

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Quote
they are immersed in a massive system of systems that inherently do not work.  India is a massive bureaucratic mud pit where any progress is made in incremental steps by hundreds, if not thousands, of people.

So they really are the Vogons  =|

Is their poetry that bad too?   :lol:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

280plus

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Quote
I don't think they understand that Americans are accustomed to devices and systems that usually work right the first time, and most of the time after that.  They don't understand the frustration we experience if we have to call a second time to fix an issue
"USA: The Land of Instant Gratification"

 =D
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RoadKingLarry

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So they really are the Vogons  =|

Is their poetry that bad too?   :lol:

I rather like Vogon poetry.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

AJ Dual

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It's one reason I'm not as worried about a Chinese ascendancy to superpower status as some, because the problem in China is worse in most ways.

Yes.

And in my experiences with the Chinese, the ones with "western" style assertiveness and independence tend to be of the scamming/criminal variety. Or they're Chinese Americans who've gone back for business reasons.
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grislyatoms

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Hewlett-Packard (Compaq/Digital) used to have some of the best customer service of all the vendors I have dealt with.

Call the support line, give them a customer id and a product serial number and a field engineer would always call within 2 hours. Done.

Now?  :facepalm: Endless discussions of contract expirations, serial number disputes, requests to run software diagnostics when the problem is CLEARLY hardware, smoke, mirrors, and flak. I HATE calling them, for ANYTHING. I also have a very difficult time understanding them.

Xerox on the other hand - excellent customer service, and excellent field service guys. And I can ALWAYS understand them.

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