Author Topic: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!  (Read 17042 times)

wmenorr67

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2011, 03:18:33 PM »
So it's not selling?

At over $40k, it's still an expensive little Chevy even WITH the government rebate.

Duh.  :facepalm:

(Just wait a couple of years until today's buyers find out how low the resale value is.  [popcorn]  )

Probably won't be able to give them away.  Be worth more as scrap from the lead in the battery and metal in the motor than the car itself.
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TechMan

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2011, 03:33:20 PM »
Probably won't be able to give them away.  Be worth more as scrap from the lead in the battery and metal in the motor than the car itself.

Kind of like the Pontiac Aztek.
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GigaBuist

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2011, 03:33:34 PM »
But... how much waste heat during charging?  The faster the charge, the greater the heat generated.

The Wikipedia article on rechargable battery tech puts the efficiency of LiIon at 80-90% for recharging and LiPo at 99.8% which, I think, are the only ones anybody plans on using in cars.

NiMh at Ni-Iron are down around 65% though.  I did not know that.

AJ Dual

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2011, 03:42:45 PM »
The main problem with any EV is that if one that could have the equivalent mileage and range per weight/volume/mass of a gallon of gasoline... in some sort of "battery", it would make a damn nifty bomb if it malfunctioned.

If you've ever blown up a "big" capacitor, (by "big" I mean 1 farad or more) or been in the room when one blew up, you have some hint of what I mean.

There's a lot of joules/wattage/therms... whatever you want to use, in gasoline. roughly 130 MJ/US gal, or 37 kWh/US gal) It's the concentrated effort of billions of watt hours of sunlight, megatons of simple plants and animals, and aeons of unimaginable temperatures and pressures due to geology.

IIRC, the best commercially feasible LiOn batteries to date have about 115 Wh/lb.  Whereas Gasoline is about 617 Wh/lb.

So in a very crude estimate, not counting for transmission losses etc. or what it means to the power grid infrastructure, or new power plants, current battery tech will have to improve by a factor of roughly five or six times the current state of the art to make EV's truly feasible as a replacement for gasoline IC engines.

Extreme aerodynamics, ultra lightweight composite materials, and the potential for some engine weight savings, like getting rid of transmissions and frictonal losses to the drive train, water pump, oil pump, the weight of the radiator etc. And everybody going to one ultra-lite commuter, and maybe one minivan for the whole family etc. instead of having two full size sedans, two SUV's  or whatever... to maximize efficiency for the average American family with 2.3 kids etc...

We're probably still going to need to see an increase of around three to four times the current state of the art in battery energy density.

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MillCreek

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2011, 04:14:58 PM »
Quote
Probably won't be able to give them away.  Be worth more as scrap from the lead in the battery and metal in the motor than the car itself.



^^^^ Of note, I have in the past month read in the WSJ and other media outlets that in some areas of the country (mostly big cities) it is not uncommon to be able to sell a 3-4 year old Prius today for more than you paid for it.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 06:03:19 PM by MillCreek »
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GigaBuist

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2011, 04:16:00 PM »
IIRC, the best commercially feasible LiOn batteries to date have about 115 Wh/lb.  Whereas Gasoline is about 617 Wh/lb.

So in a very crude estimate, not counting for transmission losses etc. or what it means to the power grid infrastructure, or new power plants, current battery tech will have to improve by a factor of roughly five or six times the current state of the art to make EV's truly feasible as a replacement for gasoline IC engines.

Keep in mind that only 225 (at theoretical max) of those 617 watts is going to be used to actually move the car forward.  The rest goes to heating up the engine.  In the real world only about 187 of those watts will actually make it to the wheels.

You don't have to have the same energy density on electric cars simply because ICE are so darned inefficient.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2011, 05:15:40 PM »
Maybe they should have named it the Ohm.

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MillCreek

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2011, 05:29:39 PM »
This tendency to make puns out of everything must be resisted. Much.

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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2011, 05:55:14 PM »
Hawk, to be fair standards of safety, acceleration, and comfort have changed quite a bit in the last 29 years.  Even if you could convince people to by that civic now with manual windows, am/fm stereo, no sound deadening and 1960's (at best) suspension, it would be illegal to sell it as it doesn't meet mandatory fed.gov safety standards.  Or emissions for that matter.

All that stuff weighs something, and it takes more power to move it all.  And even more power to move it in a fashion that is acceptable to today's car buying public.

Comparing econo boxes from 30 years ago to today's econo boxes is apples to oranges.

I disagree. It's more like comparing Granny Smith apples to Red Delicious apples.

The '82 Honda had an am/fm stereo. It had a/c. It was quiet, and it rode better than most of the small-ish cars available today. It far exceeded the emissions standards of the day, and that was with a carburetor. Use the same engine with electronic, multi-port injection and I'm sure it would have no trouble meeting today's emission standards ... and it would probably get even better mileage. I concede it didn't have side impact door beams or air bags, but that's about all it lacked. And the body was all steel -- no lightweight fenders or lower door panels or fascias. How much weight would those safety features add, and how much would the weight really affect gas mileage? Half a mile to the gallon? Maybe a full mile per gallon? So today it might only get 39 MPG highway -- or, with EMPFI it just might get 45.

The point is, what we are being sold is far short of what's possible, and we're being played for suckers.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2011, 06:12:34 PM »
FWIW, my 1993 Toyota Paseo ("sporty" version of the Tercel) got 40mpg on the highway and 25-30mpg in town with a 5spd.  It was fuel injected, but lacked ABS, power windows/locks, or airbags.  It was big enough for adults up front, but the back seats weren't really big enough for anyone other than medium sized kids.  Trunk was decent and pickup was decent enough.  Car lasted 200k before I got tired of it and sold it in 2002.

Chris

Jamie B

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2011, 11:36:58 PM »
Nobody bothered to learn from the Toyota Prius several years ago.

When gasoline jumped to $4/gal, the dealers were selling Prius' for $5,000 over sticker.

When the gas prices dropped back down, Toyota was sitting on a 60 day supply of cars for quite awhile.

Darn those fickle consumers, anyhow!
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2011, 11:43:00 PM »
Dont doubt for a minute that a huge underlying motivator for the GM bailout was so they could push the volt. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2011, 11:47:13 PM »
You people give up too easily in this era of hope, change, and Recovery Summer. You are mired in the failed politics of the last eight years BBHO.

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Jamie B

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2011, 11:50:24 PM »
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You people give up too easily in this era of hope, change, and Recovery Summer
Beg pardon, but which country were you referring to here!?  =D
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2011, 12:00:41 AM »
GM just ensured I will never by one of their products new, ever.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/19/gm-impala-lawsuit-idUSN1E77I0Z820110819

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NEW YORK, Aug 19 (Reuters) - General Motors Co (GM.N) is seeking to dismiss a lawsuit over a suspension problem on more than 400,000 Chevrolet Impalas from the 2007 and 2008 model years, saying it should not be responsible for repairs because the flaw predated its bankruptcy

 [barf]
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Azrael256

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2011, 12:18:38 AM »
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GM just ensured I will never by one of their products new, ever.

Maybe eight or ten years ago, GM had a rash of speedometer failures in their trucks.  Thousands of the things went bad over multiple model years.  I saw it on the news.

Included in the news report was GM's response.  They said it was a customer satisfaction issue and not a safety issue, and that customers were welcome to bring the vehicles in and pay for the repair.

I see the same customer service wizard is still running things.

White Horseradish

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2011, 07:22:57 AM »
HA.  I've never had any of those problems with car companies. Everything I buy is so old,  it doesn't even occur to me to go to the dealer...
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birdman

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2011, 07:34:39 AM »

IIRC, the best commercially feasible LiOn batteries to date have about 115 Wh/lb.  Whereas Gasoline is about 617 Wh/lb.

So in a very crude estimate, not counting for transmission losses etc. or what it means to the power grid infrastructure, or new power plants, current battery tech will have to improve by a factor of roughly five or six times the current state of the art to make EV's truly feasible as a replacement for gasoline IC engines.

We're probably still going to need to see an increase of around three to four times the current state of the art in battery energy density.

Which is really f-ing hard.  We've barely managed to double energy density in 10-20 years, with hundreds of billions invested.

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2011, 09:16:29 AM »


^^^^ Of note, I have in the past month read in the WSJ and other media outlets that in some areas of the country (mostly big cities) it is not uncommon to be able to sell a 3-4 year old Prius today for more than you paid for it.

I suspect there is a high correlation with legal medical marijuana. 

The Prius is to SWPLs what the BMW 325 was to yuppies in the 1980s: a status symbol.  If it was truly efficiency or enviro impact that mattered in car buying, VW turbo diesels would be the ones with the inflated resale.
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birdman

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2011, 10:00:19 AM »
I suspect there is a high correlation with legal medical marijuana. 

The Prius is to SWPLs what the BMW 325 was to yuppies in the 1980s: a status symbol.  If it was truly efficiency or enviro impact that mattered in car buying, VW turbo diesels would be the ones with the inflated resale.

Also, with the tax credit (first buyer only), and the fact some states have additional credits, I am not surprised, regardless of "status" effects.  The first buyer gets allof the (paid for by others) subsidy if choosing the correct market to purchase in, who can then sell it to someone in a less subsidized market for less than sticker (like a normal used car), but still more then originally paid.

I agree with roo_ster, it's a stupid status symbol in most cases, but only as a secondary effect to the perceived environmental aspects which created the symbol.
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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2011, 10:35:34 AM »
New Mexico must be full of liberals wearing their liberalism on their sleeves, because I've never seen so many Priuses (Preusi?). It felt good to pull alongside them in my Mustang, then punch it, leaving no doubt that I'm everything they despise.

dogmush

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2011, 10:46:18 AM »
New Mexico must be full of liberals wearing their liberalism on their sleeves, because I've never seen so many Priuses (Preusi?). It felt good to pull alongside them in my Mustang, then punch it, leaving no doubt that I'm everything they despise.

I do this in my Cobra when I'm cranky.  I love the looks they get trying to figure out what in the hell that whining noise is. 

Jamisjockey

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2011, 10:53:18 AM »
Which is really f-ing hard.  We've barely managed to double energy density in 10-20 years, with hundreds of billions invested. confiscated from taxpayers and redistributed to car companies and unions.

FTFY!!!!


Lets face it, even the idea of a tax break on a product is confiscation of wealth.  The government is using the power of wealth redistribution to try and influence our decision making as consumers and monkey with the free market.  Therefore, we've had wealth confiscated from us, the taxpayer, to influence the investment into trying to squeeze a viable electric prouduct out.
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birdman

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2011, 12:09:39 PM »
FTFY!!!!


Lets face it, even the idea of a tax break on a product is confiscation of wealth.  The government is using the power of wealth redistribution to try and influence our decision making as consumers and monkey with the free market.  Therefore, we've had wealth confiscated from us, the taxpayer, to influence the investment into trying to squeeze a viable electric prouduct out.


Actually most of the battery research until recently was with DOD or NASA funds, (mainly DOD), which is a reasonable, constitutional use.

birdman

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Re: Ladies and Gentlemen, The Next Edsel !!!!
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2011, 12:23:34 PM »
The main problem with any EV is that if one that could have the equivalent mileage and range per weight/volume/mass of a gallon of gasoline... in some sort of "battery", it would make a damn nifty bomb if it malfunctioned. .

There's a lot of joules/wattage/therms... whatever you want to use, in gasoline. roughly 130 MJ/US gal, or 37 kWh/US gal) It's the concentrated effort of billions of watt hours of sunlight, megatons of simple plants and animals, and aeons of unimaginable temperatures and pressures due to geology.

IIRC, the best commercially feasible LiOn batteries to date have about 115 Wh/lb.  Whereas Gasoline is about 617 Wh/lb.

So in a very crude estimate, not counting for transmission losses etc. or what it means to the power grid infrastructure, or new power plants, current battery tech will have to improve by a factor of roughly five or six times the current state of the art to make EV's truly feasible as a replacement for gasoline IC engines.


We're probably still going to need to see an increase of around three to four times the current state of the art in battery energy density.



I think you dropped a zero.
Gasoline is 46.4 MJ/kg, which is 5860 Wh/lb, or closer to 40x batteries.
Assuming transmission and road losses are the same, a 33% ICE efficiency, and giving EV's a 50% bonus from regenerative braking and more efficiency at part throttle (note, part-throttle pumping losses can be eliminated as BMW did with their no-throttle VANOS, or with a diesel, and stop-start on engines eliminates the idle penalty), batteries would still need a 10x improvement to match energy density.  Of course, the actual drive system is lighter with an EV, so that mass can be used for battery, so let's give the EV another 100% benefit when comparing total fuel+drivetrain mass, and it's still 5x (1265 Wh/kg).  Now, some proposed flow-through batteries, coupled with pulsed peak storage (advanced ultracaps) -could- achieve this.  But unless it's nuclear or some other non-CO2 emitting plant on the other end of the grid, the carbon footprint remains roughly the same...or worse, as a coal plant emits 1.5-2x the co2 as a modern advanced diesel for a given energy output (and I'm also neglecting the charge/discharge round-trip efficiency of the battery, power management system, motor controller, external charger, grid transport, and motor efficiency, which when combined yield a 25-30% hit on the EV).

ALSO, hydrocarbons are fungible, we can get them from just about anywhere (albeit at potentially widely varying costs), while EV's require rare earths for advanced magnets (90+% from one country, china) and lithium for batteries (75+% IIRC from one country--Bolivia)...so we replace a fungible, world-wide (and synthesizable from electricity...search for my other threads) material with a rare, non-synthesizable, potentially politically limited resource.

Overall, my vision of the future is a synthetic methanol/Dimethylether based liquid transport fuel market, powering advanced high-pressure turbocharged engines, with the fuels created from nuclear generated electricity.  Ultra-high power (got to love 100+ octane), zero carbon footprint, maximum re-use of existing infrastructure, and overall better round trip efficiency with no externally politically controlled resource requirements.