Author Topic: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."  (Read 32738 times)

Fitz

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Fitz

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #176 on: October 19, 2011, 06:16:20 PM »
Fine. Show me the law from one of the conventions of war that states I must wait for a court decide the status of an unlawful combatant that has not yet been captured before I am allowed to take action against them.


can someone show me even a pic of this guy with a gun?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #177 on: October 19, 2011, 06:21:32 PM »
I think this thread has ended up proving bin laden victorious - he managed to get us to a condition where our president asserts the right to kill us anywhere in the world without trial, and this power is angrily defended by many.  It's as bad as anything bin laden could have delivered had he invaded on camelback.

I'll be watching from afar how this plays out - a bankrupt government which can kill anyone it wants by simply asserting "terror" is going to make for some interesting history.

I'm predicting that these powers absolutely will be applied to other crimes, including drug use, once the government gets desperate enough.

And their arguments will be just like kgb, roo, and fitz's - "of course its a threat!  If we don't do this we will ALL DIE" "theyre obviously guilty, just look at what we told you they did"!

And most importantly, "what's the difference if we killed him in NYC or colombia?  We need to kill drug enablers anywhere.   We need to treat this just like the war on terror if we are going to survive!"

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Fitz

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #178 on: October 19, 2011, 06:47:29 PM »
I think this thread has ended up proving bin laden victorious - he managed to get us to a condition where our president asserts the right to kill us anywhere in the world without trial, and this power is angrily defended by many.  It's as bad as anything bin laden could have delivered had he invaded on camelback.

I'll be watching from afar how this plays out - a bankrupt government which can kill anyone it wants by simply asserting "terror" is going to make for some interesting history.

I'm predicting that these powers absolutely will be applied to other crimes, including drug use, once the government gets desperate enough.

And their arguments will be just like kgb, roo, and fitz's - "of course its a threat!  If we don't do this we will ALL DIE" "theyre obviously guilty, just look at what we told you they did"!

And most importantly, "what's the difference if we killed him in NYC or colombia?  We need to kill drug enablers anywhere.   We need to treat this just like the war on terror if we are going to survive!"



The president has asserted his right to kill members of an organization we are at war with, anywhere in the world, without trial.

Big difference.

Also: i'm a big boy. I am not operating on "their word" that he's a bad dude.  I assure you there is evidence at the secret level and above that many, many military members are privy to.

Also, the continued comparisons to the war on some drugs are retarded. The drug cartel problems wouldn't be as much of a problem if they were legal.

Legalizing terrorism and bombings, on the other hand, makes no sense.

Your logic is failing and flawed, and now you're resorting to the last refuge of someone with no logical basis: red herrings.
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #179 on: October 19, 2011, 06:54:49 PM »
Wow. I didn't know that end of the pool went that deep. That's... very special. Since nothing you've just said has any basis in reality, and you've continually ignored very germane facts that counter, well, pretty much everything you've said, I'm not going to bother with a protracted thought-out counter to... that post, and I will say this quite simply and as my final statement in this thread:

I have actually vetted targets for our forces to try to kill or capture and on occasion killed them myself, you have not. You do not know what is involved, nothing you have said is correct. Good day, citizen.


De Selby

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #180 on: October 19, 2011, 07:11:10 PM »
You two are focusing on the wrong question.

The question is not "are fitz and KGB good guys who would use their secret knowledge carefully?"

The question is "how badly can the government abuse the power to kill people based on secret evidence, and what checks are in place to prevent abuse?"

The government is frequently wrong in its assertions about these things.  Unless they are tested, there's no way to ensure that a fair decision was reached.  Secret vetting is not going to serve that purpose, no matter how righteous one or two people who do it are.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Fitz

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #181 on: October 19, 2011, 07:13:30 PM »
You two are focusing on the wrong question.

The question is not "are fitz and KGB good guys who would use their secret knowledge carefully?"

The question is "how badly can the government abuse the power to kill people based on secret evidence, and what checks are in place to prevent abuse?"

The government is frequently wrong in its assertions about these things.  Unless they are tested, there's no way to ensure that a fair decision was reached.  Secret vetting is not going to serve that purpose, no matter how righteous one or two people who do it are.

The only questionable part of this story is the classification of the legal theory.

Secret vetting of targets, on the other hand, is both necessary and has been common for a long time. We cannot place information in the public domain that could compromise our operations.

If we don't trust leaders with secret data, we shouldn't elect them. There are plenty of reasons to dislike obama and the government. Keeping operations secret is not one of them.

You also have done little to address any of the questions or hypotheticals I posed to you. You are not interested in debate,  you are interested in a self righteous condemnation of the death of a murderous bastard.
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

dogmush

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #182 on: October 19, 2011, 07:45:26 PM »

can someone show me even a pic of this guy with a gun?



Uh...yes


ETA:  No, Seriously. This board has once again allowed DS to get all wrapped up in ....something.  This dude was a terrorist.  He was an enemy combatant, and was at the time of his death planning logistics and strikes for our enemies.  He frakking bragged about it for crying out loud.  The ONLY shady thing about his killing at all is why .gov feels the need to classify the justification.  Don't let the aussie lawyer obfuscate the fact that this particular US citizen needed to die posthaste.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 07:51:00 PM by dogmush »

Blakenzy

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #183 on: October 19, 2011, 10:03:58 PM »
The killing of this particular individual isn't what is being attacked. It's the Orwellian Big Brother attitude that is quite disturbing. Whether "special" people just knew he was a bad guy doesn't matter. The trouble is that there are apparently no safeguards left to protect US Citizens against loss of life by Government hand. No burden of proof, no accountability. Screw ups and foul play can from now on just be fixed with "classified". How that protects me and my fellow citizens is beyond me.

Quote
I have actually vetted targets for our forces to try to kill or capture and on occasion killed them myself, you have not. You do not know what is involved, nothing you have said is correct. Good day, citizen.

Sounds like a pretty good Jack Nicholson "You can't handle the truth" spin off.

Sadly, that attitude doesn't lead to a society in which individual rights are preserved.

Quote
I am not operating on "their word" that he's a bad dude.  I assure you there is evidence at the secret level and above that many, many military members are privy to.

Maybe YOU are not "operating on their word", but asking that the rest of us do is asking too much. We aren't children. When this "evidence at the secret level" leads to the planned, targeted killing of a US national, it's very much in our best interest to have it open for independent review and serious questioning.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

De Selby

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #184 on: October 19, 2011, 10:36:09 PM »
Blakenzy, that is exactly the point - scroll through this thread and you'll find no assertion that it's wrong to kill terrorists in the absolute - the issue is in having a process that protects you and me from arbitrary killing. 

Secret evidence that satisfies only certain special people is begging for abuse; to believe the government wouldn't use such a power improperly is pure naiveity.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #185 on: October 19, 2011, 10:53:33 PM »
Blakenzy, that is exactly the point - scroll through this thread and you'll find no assertion that it's wrong to kill terrorists in the absolute - the issue is in having a process that protects you and me from arbitrary killing. 

Secret evidence that satisfies only certain special people is begging for abuse; to believe the government wouldn't use such a power improperly is pure naiveity.


The only issue of merit has nothing to do with secret evidence.  The evidence was willfully disseminated by the deceased and unquestioned by reasonable folk.  The issue is the secret justification.  Which really is no secret: he made war on us, we made war on him.  The End. 

BHO and his lawyerly types feel the need to square the circle of BHO's pre-POTUS rhetoric and his actions as POTUS.  That may convince a few pseudo-sophisticated rubes, but it has nothing to do with legality or war and everything to do with a face-saving gesture.



Quote from: Blakenzy
Sounds like a pretty good Jack Nicholson "You can't handle the truth" spin off.

Only to the ignorant.  DS, in the pertinent post(s), also exhibits profound ignorance of the process and ROE.  That is giving DS the benefit of the doubt.  If he is not as ignorant as his posts paint him, he moves from ignorant to mendacious.


Regards,

roo_ster

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Fitz

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #186 on: October 20, 2011, 10:50:02 AM »
The ROE is so damn restrictive, the burden of proof is high. Hell, soldiers get in trouble for shooting people WHILE planting IEDs, because they don't have an AK on them or something. I've seen it happen!  :facepalm:

I guarantee there is a ton of supporting info that's classified.
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #187 on: October 23, 2011, 09:41:00 AM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-airstrike-that-killed-american-teen-in-yemen-raises-legal-ethical-questions/2011/10/20/gIQAdvUY7L_story.html

y Craig Whitlock, Published: October 22

One week after a U.S. military airstrike killed a 16-year-old American citizen in Yemen, no one in the Obama administration, Pentagon or Congress has taken responsibility for his death, or even publicly acknowledged that it happened.

The absence of official accountability for the demise of Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, a Denver native and the son of an al-Qaeda member, deepens the legal and ethical murkiness of the Obama administration’s campaign to kill alleged enemies of the state outside of traditional war zones.



Unlike the secretive U.S. airstrikes that have killed hundreds of foreigners in Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen, this case involved an American teenager. He was killed by the U.S. military in a country with which Washington is not at war.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #188 on: October 23, 2011, 09:46:38 AM »
I'm sure someone from the Government will assure us that there was a good reason it had to be that way, but that we're not cleared to find out what it is.

"Just trust us - we only kill people for good reasons.  But we're not going to tell you what those reasons are." 

How could that possibly be abused by the .gov?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #189 on: October 23, 2011, 10:21:53 AM »
I'm sure someone from the Government will assure us that there was a good reason it had to be that way, but that we're not cleared to find out what it is.

"Just trust us - we only kill people for good reasons.  But we're not going to tell you what those reasons are." 
How could that possibly be abused by the .gov?

Someone please check Hades for icicles.  I find my self in agreeance with DeSelby.


The .gov should be able to take down people who make war against our country.  But when those people are US citizens, it should be a process open to scrutiny. 
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roo_ster

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #190 on: October 23, 2011, 10:42:35 AM »
Someone please check Hades for icicles.  I find my self in agreeance with DeSelby.


The .gov should be able to take down people who make war against our country.  But when those people are US citizens, it should be a process open to scrutiny. 

Agreed, we ought to know why American citizens making war against America need whacking.  (Pretty easy when the dude in question boasts of it on video.)

But DS's original position was that to kill some citizen making war against America, who had admitted to it for all to see, was illegal.  That planning, aiding, and inciting war was somehow not making war.  In fact, his position is/was more restrictive than that.



Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #191 on: October 23, 2011, 01:22:14 PM »
yemen tried the sob in absentia and we couldn't?  yemen?!
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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seeker_two

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #192 on: October 23, 2011, 08:17:12 PM »
yemen tried the sob in absentia and we couldn't?  yemen?!

Do we really want to strive to model the Yemeni version of justice and due process? ???
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

De Selby

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #193 on: October 23, 2011, 08:34:23 PM »
Do we really want to strive to model the Yemeni version of justice and due process? ???

That's the point - they tried him and  we supposedly couldnt.  We shouldn't  be killing people with less process, and fewer limits on Government, than Yemen.

Roo_ster, what mechanism do you think should be applied to make the Government test its claims  about terrorists?  How do you think that mechanism would prevent abuse of power, and in what way would it be limited in scope?

I'm all ears.  I mentioned the criminal trial because that's what we have traditionally used to make the Government prove its claims (which, again, frequently turn out to be wrong.)   

Internal process trends towards the echo chamber effect, like you have on this thread with KGB and Fitz, where everyone involved agrees on the facts and then spends their time justifying each other's claims.  There is a  very real risk  in that environment of unfalsifiable hypotheses of guilt. 

Internal inquiries are prone to the people involved deeming themselves experts, with the result that when outsiders question their conclusions, they tend to write them off as due to a lack of knowledge.  The obvious problem is that, when 12 random people can't be convinced of a fact, it's more than likely that the facts aren't actually there.  This is why we have trials, so the police echo chamber is forced to become something that outside, independent people would agree is the truth.

It seems to me the risk is every bit the same, if not worse, for terrorism accusations.  The Government's rate with Gitmo detainees was atrocious, as the majority have been found not to have had anything to do with terrorism.  That's a powerful reason to doubt any Government claims about how sure it is that someone is a terrorist.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #194 on: October 23, 2011, 09:14:38 PM »
Do we really want to strive to model the Yemeni version of justice and due process? ???

in this instance we came in behind yemen  i like to hope we can do better than that
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MechAg94

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Re: Obama Admin: Legal Theory for Whacking US Citizen "classified."
« Reply #195 on: October 23, 2011, 10:23:06 PM »
Wow, I'm glad I haven't read this entire thread.  This subject is being stretched out to ridiculous lengths. 
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