Author Topic: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG  (Read 4677 times)

richyoung

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Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2006, 07:38:15 AM »
Quote from: mtnbkr
Quote from: richyoung
The "full benefit" of millionso f tones of acid-laden battery packs to be disposed of.    Think they don't what your dead flashlight batteries in the garbage?  Where are you gona put that dead hybrid battery pack?
I was thinking more along the lines of batteries that aren't polution nightmares and that last upwards of 200k miles before a replacement is necessary.  I was also thinking about hybrids or similar vehicles that could get much greater gas mileage than current models.  In other words, I was talking about what continuous refinement of the technology could bring us in the future.  Just like the car industry in it's infancy, we'll have fits and starts and even dead end technology.  However, just like the auto industry went from the Stanley Steamer to Honda Accords, we'll go from current hybrid technology to something that works so well we'll wonder why anyone would use something else.

Chris
OK - but thats going to take more than an incrimental leap forward.  The basic problem is that all the 'hybrid" equipment adds weight to the car - and all that weight has to be sped up and slowed down.  If the savings from regenerationsl braking and more efficient engine operation aren't very, very large, they don't offset the energy cost of toting the equipment and the increased initial capital expenditure.  They don't even make sense now, and thats with high gas and tax brakes.
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Justin

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Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2006, 08:19:05 AM »
Toyota is claiming that the next generation of Prius will get around 100 mpg.

I'm skeptical about hybrids that run on batteries, but lately I've read of advances in nanotech-based "ultracapacitors" that supposedly store much more energy than traditional capicitors, and I have to wonder if in the future they would be able to use those instead of batteries.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2007, 05:38:09 PM »
I was at a Chevy dealership in Titusville, FL, looking at the Silverado hybrid pickup.  It had the 5.3L V-8 gas (petrol for the nebishes amongst us) engine, and as the salesman watched me, I gasped at the fuel economy numbers on the window sticker.  (Note: This was BEFORE the EPA did their recent switch to reality-based fuel economy ratings on vehicles sold here)  That Silverado's window sticker said 18mpg city, 21mpg highway.   shocked

I turned and asked the salesman what the deal was.  He said the Hybrid Silverado was built as a contractor's truck, and the hybrid wasn't intended for fuel savings.  The Hybrid Silverado's battery pack was intended to power the 115vac tools on a job site by means of the built-in inverter and the 115vac outlets in the cab and box.   

Okeydokey.


I noticed the other day when I was pumping E-85 into my S-10, that the diesel pump next to the E-85 said "Not for 2007 or newer model year diesel vehicles"  Evidently, the low-sulfur diesel at that pump must really raise hell with diesels built this year.  Is it an injector thing, or is it something else that'll cause harm to a diesel?  Mechanical-injection diesels run on low-sulfur french-fry oil once it's warmed up to 150 degrees, so I'm kinda curious...
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sumpnz

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2007, 08:11:39 PM »
My understanding is that the ultra-super-extremely low sulfur diesel causes problems with some engines because the sulfur acts like (IIRC) something of a lubricant.  Either that or it did something to make it run a little smoother, kinda in the same sense as the lead in gas was a knock preventative.  Take too much out, and engines designed to run on the higher sulfer content fuel have problems.

wmenorr67

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2007, 02:52:38 AM »
They just need to figure out how to run vehicles on hydrogen.  Pull out the garden hose and fill the tank up with good ole H2O and drive away.
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Cromlech

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2007, 03:10:56 AM »
They just need to figure out how to run vehicles on hydrogen.  Pull out the garden hose and fill the tank up with good ole H2O and drive away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzJZJjo9MNA

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2007, 06:00:34 AM »
You don't need a hybrid to get 40mpg.  I've got a 2005 Toyota Echo that cost $12,800 out the door.  It regularly gets 40mpg and that's at freeway speeds of 75+mph. I'd drive slower (and get better gas mileage), but I'd get run over.  The car has plenty of power, and top speed is 105mph.  The Toyota Yaris is the same thing in a newer body style.

Art Eatman

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2007, 08:07:41 PM »
What's not talked about in this brave new world of batteries:

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188

There's the pollution thing, too...

Art
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Firethorn

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2007, 08:56:04 PM »
I see hybrids eventually making themselves a niche;  Unfortuantly they're currently only barely economical in special circumstances like an inner city cab - lots of stop&go traffic and still managing to pile on the miles, in a region especially sensitive to pollution.

If you don't have the miles, a pure electric makes more sense in stop&go, short ranged travel where you don't want local pollution.  Electricity's about a third of the price of gasoline, and that's for a PHEV, which is relativly fuel efficient over normal cars.

For long distance highway travel, a diesel makes the most sense. 

Gewehr98

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2007, 09:39:05 PM »
Quote
Electricity's about a third of the price of gasoline, and that's for a PHEV, which is relativly fuel efficient over normal cars.

Sounds neat, but (and that's a very big BUT...)

What's the environmental footprint of that electric vehicle, in sum total, as Art's link discusses with respect to the Toyota Prius vs. Hummer?  I'm talking about the electrical generating plant on the other end of that EV's battery charger, is it coal, natural gas, bunker crude, nuclear, geothermal, wind turbine, or solar photovoltaic? 

People buying hybrids and EVs are indeed smug until somebody points out the rest of the story.

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TMM

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2007, 07:09:00 AM »
Until someone makes a good fuel-efficient truck, i'm sticking with the Toyota Tacoma 4-banger. i don't care if the little car gets 100mpg - it's completely useless for any other purposes than getting from point A to point B. plus, i'm too big to fit in a car well. 6'2" with boots on my feet and a fedora on my head is a little tight... the Tacoma handles me just right, though.

~tmm

Ben

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2007, 07:28:52 AM »
Quote
I'm talking about the electrical generating plant on the other end of that EV's battery charger, is it coal, natural gas, bunker crude, nuclear, geothermal, wind turbine, or solar photovoltaic?

This is my big pet peeve with people using electric "for the environment". Sure, if your batteries are charging off nuclear or solar or similar, you're using clean power and contributing to a cleaner envorinment. If you're charging off a coal source, all you're doing is participating in the NIMBY philosophy.
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Firethorn

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2007, 07:33:46 AM »
What's the environmental footprint of that electric vehicle, in sum total, as Art's link discusses with respect to the Toyota Prius vs. Hummer?  I'm talking about the electrical generating plant on the other end of that EV's battery charger, is it coal, natural gas, bunker crude, nuclear, geothermal, wind turbine, or solar photovoltaic?

First, I'm mostly an advocate of 'one or the other'.  IE you switch to full-electric or switch to bio-diesel/ethanol.  This is mostly to reduce reliance on oil.  If you choose the electric option and need the extra range occasionally, that's time to rent a hydrocarbon fueled vehicle.  Either that or there's an intriguing idea involving what's essentially a lawnmower-powered generator in a trailor.  The idea's simple:  You hook up a trailer with a hydrocarbon generator in the back.  Along with the hitch you look up some power and control leads.  The generator churns along, producing just enough power to keep you at highway speeds, or maybe even a little lower.  After all, you should have a hundred miles or so in your batteries.  Oversize the trailor a bit to give you more storage space for the trip.  Heck, I've even heard of one that uses a sort of one-gear automatic transmission that acts as a 'pusher'.  When you hit the brakes, regenerative braking puts the power from the pusher into the batteries.  At a lower speed the pusher shuts off.

As the very length of power sources you posted point out, it's a very complex issue.  Even battery replacement gets complicated, as a hybrid or EV battery is almost certainly going to be recycled, which limits it's enviromental impact.  Then there's battery chemistry to consider;  the big three are lead-acid; NiMH, and LiIon.  They're listed in order of increasing cost and density, though there are projections that have the LiIon eventually being cheaper than NiMH, as Lithium is a more common metal than Nickel.  As for power sources, well, partially due to the decreased overall power requirements for an electric vehicle because of the increased efficiency and the greater efficiency of a modern* power plant at controlling pollution, an EV is, at least in operation, less polluting than an average car.  This will get better if we ever stop building coal plants(if oil keeps getting more expensive, the few oil plants in the USA will shut down), in favor of nuclear/wind/solar.

Please also note that I posted conditionals where the vehicles are being used in areas that are especially pollution sensitive;  Lots of vehicles and people in small areas like a city.  While nickel production at the one plant may be a disaster; that does not mean that it HAS to be a disaster.  It's kinda like why many warehouses have electric forklifts.  It's not because they're more economical or enviromentally clean overall; it's because the fumes from a hydrocarbon motor is more hazardous there in the warehouse than the extra waste elsewhere.

Oh, and I may be getting the threads confused, but I've been reading about people talking about the evolution of electric/hybrids to be even more efficient.  I have to point out that while hybrid cars may indeed be a fairly new idea, all the technologies used in them are VERY mature.  Electric motors-out for at least the last hundred years, and used in industry ranging from microscopic to 'crush puny semi into pancake' huge.  The size range needed for an electric car is a known science.  Batteries are the same story, NiMH has been out since the 1980's, LiIon went commercial in 1991.  There is still development going on, but that's gradual, not breakthrough stuff.

*Yes, I know many power plants can't be considered modern.

drewtam

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2007, 01:52:37 PM »
I'm a little surprised by that, diesel is more expensive than petrol here but diesel cars are selling in ever increasing numbers. This friend drives a Vauxhall Vectra with a 2.2 engine, it's not a 5l V8 but it's a moderately big car.

Iain,

Our gasoline is around $2.60/gal (=$0.65/liter)
Diesel is $2.90/gal (=$0.725/lt)

Our gas isn't taxed so high as to make diesel siginificantly cheaper (beside the fuel efficiency). So the economics favor gasoline for anything except 2 situations: extremely larger mileage in the life of a vehicle (over the road trucks); and machines where weight is an advantage and the price of the engines does not add significantly to the priceof the machine besides fuel cost(constuction and mining machinery).

Drew
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drewtam

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2007, 02:01:10 PM »

I noticed the other day when I was pumping E-85 into my S-10, that the diesel pump next to the E-85 said "Not for 2007 or newer model year diesel vehicles"  Evidently, the low-sulfur diesel at that pump must really raise hell with diesels built this year.  Is it an injector thing, or is it something else that'll cause harm to a diesel?  Mechanical-injection diesels run on low-sulfur french-fry oil once it's warmed up to 150 degrees, so I'm kinda curious...

First there is LSD = Low sulfer diesel and ULSD = ultra low sulfer diesel.

The ULSD is nesessary for the Diesel Particulate Filters and other aftertreatments to work right. The sulfer will foul up the systems.

The problem with removing the sulfer is the process also removes the polarized molecules that maintain the lubricity of the fuel. The sulfer itself is not the lubricant. Biodiesels ar very high in lubricity, so cutting in 5 or 10% adds all the lubricatiopn back that your fuel system needs for long life.

Drew
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richyoung

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Re: Cost comparison - hybrid equivalent MPG
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2007, 05:27:11 AM »
What happens to the calculations if you bump the gas price to $6/gal, which is where it is in Germany right now?
I am not disagreeing that the hybrids are a feel-good solution, just asking about other scenarios.

I hate to burst your bubble, but GASOLINE itself only costs slightly more in Germany than in the U.S.  However, the socialist, redistributive TAXES on the gasoline are quite higher there.  Ask any U.S. military oiver in Germany what they pay for gas- they don;t have to pay the taxes at the post gas stations...
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...