Question on Communism and European Anti-Semitism

[Perd Hapley]

Does anyone else find it a bit odd that Communism was, at least at one time,* so popular in Europe, given that Marx was of Jewish heritage? Communism found some of its earliest success in France, then in the Soviet Union. Neither of these are known for their friendly attitudes toward Jews. I'm not at all familiar with the anti-Communist literature of Europe, but I would have thought that Communism would have been readily dismissed by pointing out the Jewish ancestry of Marx, or painting it as a Jewish conspiracy or something.

Or maybe I overestimate Europe and/or Russia's degree of antisemitism.


*According to my limited understand of modern Europe, Communism, as a brand, is not terribly popular anymore, even if many socialist and communist elements are widespread.

[Monkeyleg]

I don't know that any governments or peoples look at someone's Jewish ancestry, other than the Nazis. Marx was born to a Jewish/Lutheran family, and they converted to Lutheranism when he was still a baby. He became an atheist in his early years. So, other than blood, which as I say was I believe only of concern to the Nazis, he wasn't Jewish.

[TommyGunn]

I don't think one has much to do with the other.
I mean that, antisemitism existed prior to Marx and was prevelant in europe.  Hitler didn't create it, he merely took advantage of antisemitism and "fanned the flames" of it, and used it for his endlosung and rassenhygiena programs. 

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

Antisemitism was an excuse when needed, and tossed away at other times. Hitler had a Jewish doctor that he supported and protected. Several of the other head Nazis had similar stories. Either Goebbels or Himmler once complained about it publicly in a speech, saying something along the lines of "everybody's got their number one Jew."
Some of the White Russians tried to paint the Bolsheviks as part of a Jewish conspiracy, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (brought from Russia to Western Europe by the WRs) became very popular for a time - but they took a big hit in the 20s, when they were proven to be plagiarism of other books. I suspect the "Jews are Commies and Commies are Jews" notion took a heavy blow due to that, except among Fascist types.

[AJ Dual]

I always assumed that the Communist antipathy for Jews was that historically in Europe, Jews were always associated with some of the most "monied" and capitalist enterprises, doctors, lawyers, jewelers, and bankers.

Europe had a long standing tradition of reserving banking for Jews, when it was felt that lending and any interest, however modest was ursury, and a Christian engaged in it at the peril of his immortal soul.

So aside from being a religious and ethnic minority which was obviously more than "reason enough" for persecution, they often had a socio-economic position in society that put them right in the crosshairs of the Communist dialectic.

[Perd Hapley]

I don't know that any governments or peoples look at someone's Jewish ancestry, other than the Nazis. Marx was born to a Jewish/Lutheran family, and they converted to Lutheranism when he was still a baby. He became an atheist in his early years. So, other than blood, which as I say was I believe only of concern to the Nazis, he wasn't Jewish.

I don't see your garden-variety anti-Semite being all that concerned about the distinction. Blood, religion, what do they care? But perhaps I'm wrong.

I was unaware that Marx's family had converted. It doesn't mean his Jewish roots couldn't be used for propaganda purposes, of course.

Some of the White Russians tried to paint the Bolsheviks as part of a Jewish conspiracy, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (brought from Russia to Western Europe by the WRs) became very popular for a time - but they took a big hit in the 20s, when they were proven to be plagiarism of other books. I suspect the "Jews are Commies and Commies are Jews" notion took a heavy blow due to that, except among Fascist types.

OK, that would be the sort of thing I have wondered about.

[Monkeyleg]

I always assumed that the Communist antipathy for Jews was that historically in Europe, Jews were always associated with some of the most "monied" and capitalist enterprises, doctors, lawyers, jewelers, and bankers.

Europe had a long standing tradition of reserving banking for Jews, when it was felt that lending and any interest, however modest was ursury, and a Christian engaged in it at the peril of his immortal soul.

So aside from being a religious and ethnic minority which was obviously more than "reason enough" for persecution, they often had a socio-economic position in society that put them right in the crosshairs of the Communist dialectic.

It may be a chicken and egg relationship. Over centuries, Jewish people gravitated towards professions and industries that were more portable than others: banking, jewels, law, etc, as they'd been driven out of so many places and lost everything previously.

[Iain]

I'm not at all familiar with the anti-Communist literature of Europe, but I would have thought that Communism would have been readily dismissed by pointing out the Jewish ancestry of Marx, or painting it as a Jewish conspiracy or something.

You don't need to restrict yourself to the anti-communist literature and figures of Europe to see that being used by the anti-semitic right.

[vaskidmark]

First of all, almost every "government" in Europe discriminated against the Jews, whether it was feudal lords or aggregated mobs meeting in large halls with the blessings of the rest of the population.  The most benign form was to mandate that they wear some article of clothing that clearly identified them as Jews, be it a certain type of hat or the wearing of something colored yellow as an outer garment.  While the term "pogram" is Russian in origin the behavior was widespread across Europe.

As has been touched on, Jews were both drawn and forced into the financial fields because of the restrictions placed on them against entry/participation in just about everything else.  Jews became the moneylenders/bankers as much because of the Christian/Muslim prohibition against usury (which at the time was defined as charging any interest) as because they were able/willing to trust their brethern in foreign countries to honor letters of credit as opposed to insisting on dealing in hard cash.  (One of the more famous examples was the ransom of Richard the Lion-Hearted - no silver crossed the channel, only a letter from one Jewish community to another saying they would adjust debts to consumate the payoff.)

"Original" communism had a great deal of appeal and support from within the Jewish community because it was designed to do away with the artificial barriers that separated the under class from the upper class - especially regarding land reform matters.  Further, the Jews were used to working collaboratively in committees while the Christians had much less expertise in that regard.

But the briefest look at the history of Russian communism will show that antisemitism reared its head early and often.  Even tho most Jews were Bolshivics as opposed to Menchivics they were discriminated against as the party began to amass power and appeared to be headed for the top spot as replacement for the Tsarist system.

stay safe.

[gunsmith]

You don't need to restrict yourself to the anti-communist literature and figures of Europe to see that being used by the anti-semitic right.

I used to be one of those protestor types, I probably have some friends on Wall St right now.

I encountered way more  antisemitism on the left side of the spectrum and have been conservative for around 16 yrs now and have never encountered any antisemitism on the right side of the spectrum.

I guess left/right is way different on your side of the pond.

[Iain]

Again, you don't have to look hard. Henry Ford and 'The International Jew'. I know it's a lovely easy slur, and I know a fair portion of the left is not pro-Israel and that makes it even more irresistible, but anti-semitism is not more a thing of the left than the right. It exists in both, it exists where people aren't consciously either, or reject both.

Its roots are ancient, and places where it has emerged in the last century or so are places where it has always been an undercurrent. Or amongst people who've long held on to it.

[De Selby]

Again, you don't have to look hard. Henry Ford and 'The International Jew'. I know it's a lovely easy slur, and I know a fair portion of the left is not pro-Israel and that makes it even more irresistible, but anti-semitism is not more a thing of the left than the right. It exists in both, it exists where people aren't consciously either, or reject both.

Its roots are ancient, and places where it has emerged in the last century or so are places where it has always been an undercurrent. Or amongst people who've long held on to it.

I think you'll find that many here consider traditionally right wing groups to be leftists - fascists, white supremacists, islamic extremists, etc. 

Interestengly, the al Qaeda types' anti-semitism seems to be matched only by their hatred for communism and their embrace of far right, lassiez faire economics.  They are decidedly right wing in that regard, so their ranks ought to be counted if we're comparing.

[gunsmith]

Again, you don't have to look hard. Henry Ford and 'The International Jew'. I know it's a lovely easy slur, and I know a fair portion of the left is not pro-Israel and that makes it even more irresistible, but anti-semitism is not more a thing of the left than the right. It exists in both, it exists where people aren't consciously either, or reject both.

Its roots are ancient, and places where it has emerged in the last century or so are places where it has always been an undercurrent. Or amongst people who've long held on to it.

Henry Ford apologized twice for publishing "the international Jew" In 1997,  the Ford Motor Company sponsored the first screening of Steven Spielberg’s "Schindler’s List," commercial-free, on national network television.

From    
Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs jcpa.org

"Since the Second World War - and especially since the ascent of the New Left in the late 1960s - left-wing anti-Semitism has remained conveniently veiled by anti-Zionism. However, the European left's hatred of Israel has become much more potent over the last 15-20 years for one crucial reason: it is the left's language and discourse - not the right's - that have been adopted by the European mainstream.

The reason you had to go back to Ford is that when the argument could be made that  antisemitism was a right wing thing, I guess in Europe you still have vestiges of groups that call themselves right wing but in reality they in no way resemble American Conservatism .   Right now, today in left wing circles like the occupy movement you could get just about every person there to agree that "Israel is just as bad as the Nazi's"  

I heard that all the time as a NYC anarchist, today's anti Semite is a moron lefty that really doesn't understand the holocaust because only a moron could say that "Israel is just as bad as the Nazi's"  The veil is the claim that they are not rightwingnazi's because they hate the state of Israel - not individual Jews.  Kind of like modern "Moderate Muslims" they don't want to exterminate Jewish people-just the state of Israel.

I lived in Ireland for two years with all kinds of Europeans, kept up with all the major respectable newspapers & talked politics all the time ... I was astounded by all the  antisemitism disguised as liberal opposition to Israel.

I guess in Europe there are some football hooligans that perceive themselves a right wing  & that they would beat up a Jewish person as much as they would a black person but they're a small minority, the majority of antisemitism today is left wing attacks on Israel: a view common the lefties all over the world.

[Perd Hapley]

I guess in Europe you still have vestiges of groups that call themselves right wing but in reality they in no way resemble American Conservatism .  

gunsmith, it doesn't pay to take offense to the way someone uses terms like "left," "right," "liberal," etc, when they are discussing politics outside the U.S. The various movements, and the labels, vary in different parts of the world.

I assume Iain was referring to European rightists, since the OP was about Europe.
Oh, never mind. I don't have to assume, since he did specify Europe.

[gunsmith]

I think you'll find that many here consider traditionally right wing groups to be leftists - fascists, white supremacists, islamic extremists, etc. 


sure shooting student, and no amount of facts can dissuade true left wing haters ... so there is no point in even demonstrating the history of the fascist movement or the connections between Islamofascist and the original fascist movement

Interestengly, nice word shootingstudent, whats it mean?

the al Qaeda types' anti-semitism seems to be matched only by their hatred for communism and their embrace of far right, lassiez faire economics.  They are decidedly right wing in that regard, so their ranks ought to be counted if we're comparing. you're a riot shootingstudent hahahahahah wait...you're serious???!!!  

[gunsmith]

gunsmith, it doesn't pay to take offense to the way someone uses terms like "left," "right," "liberal," etc, when they are discussing politics outside the U.S. The various movements, and the labels, vary in different parts of the world.

I assume Iain was referring to European rightists, since the OP was about Europe.
 

European rightists??? like Henry Ford??

[Perd Hapley]

European rightists??? like Henry Ford??

That was after you brought the U.S. into the discussion. If you look at that post of his you quoted earlier, you'll see that he did say he was talking about Europe.

[Iain]

"Just about every person" eh?

This conversation started with a post that in part asked if opposition to communism had ever taken an anti-semitic slant. I responded that it had, and you didn't need to only look in Europe to find it. What interests me subsequently is the reflexive nature of the response - the left is anti-semitic, the left is anti-Israel.

There is no more pro-Israeli place in the world than certain parts of America, and you can include a lot of Israel in the world. Of course I don't necessarily view pro-Israel as being pro-Jew, or more clearly, I have encountered anti-semitism amongst people who are pro-Israel. For some, Israel is a means to a prophesied end. Let's not forget, the history of Christianity is not a tale of solely positive relations with Jews. Note that I'm not speaking in generalities.