Author Topic: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.  (Read 13077 times)

De Selby

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2011, 02:26:11 AM »
I haven't watched this yet. Did he "beat her with a belt," or give her a spanking? Or what is it about this that makes it abuse, hitting, beating, etc?

Extremely violent words, use of a weapon, and duration.   

If it would be a crime for him to do this to his wife (and obviously it would), there's no rational way to explain why it shouldn't be a crime for him to do it to his 16 year old disabled daughter.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2011, 02:34:34 AM »
Extremely violent words, use of a weapon, and duration.   

If it would be a crime for him to do this to his wife (and obviously it would), there's no rational way to explain why it shouldn't be a crime for him to do it to his 16 year old disabled daughter.

But 16-year-olds are chiiiiilren, De Selby. So they don't have any rights! Isn't that grand?
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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2011, 02:54:23 AM »
Its wrong to treat children that way.

I strongly dislike that some conservatives tend to side with child abusers, it kept me away from the conservative movement for a long time.

Judge has control issues, like anti gunners do. He has a psychological problem with his inability to confront his own demons, undoubtedly he was treated way worse as a child.

He has apologized, a step in the right direction.

Before I got sober and into gun owners rights, this was my main issue, I hate child abuse and would like to see it end the same way that society has ended wife beating.

The rule of thumb used to be the size of the stick you were allowed to beat your wife with ( same thickness as your thumb ) ... Society properly frowns upon beating your wife if she disobeys, we will be better off when children gets the same benefit.

I'm not saying we should not teach our children right from wrong, but all the Judge did was teach his child that its OK to go freaky with a belt ( why does he have to insist on whipping her buttocks? he got a lot of licks in on her legs/back ... its suggest a sexual overtone to the punishment )
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zahc

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2011, 09:29:03 AM »
Quote
Inflicting pain and using fear to dominate and control your kids is bad basic parenting.

FIFY


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2011, 09:34:44 AM »
he apologized?!  i'm taking it you relied on someone elses interpretation of that as opposed to reading it yourself?

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/02/justice/texas-video-beating/
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SteveS

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2011, 09:35:47 AM »
So what made them loose that creativity between your teens and your 40's?  

Dementia...

The age was in reference to this post:

Quote
Nothing new here, just move along......anyone over 50 probably grew up under the "belt" and lived through it........The banning of corporal punishment is something the "me" generation dreamed up..........chris3
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seeker_two

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2011, 09:38:49 AM »
Why does it matter when and how she came forward? I'm kind of hazy on the moral and ethical boundaries of blackmail.

He beat her, in a clearly abusive way. He likely controlled her to the point she couldn't do anything about it. (You contemplate going to the police or CPS about your daddy, the judge--y'know, that guy the cops and social workers all have to kiss up relentlessly)

She tried to use what he did to get stuff. Fine by me. When someone screws you over, do you necessarily consider it your duty to handle it in a way that will address their misbehavior without having any effect on you at all? 

Note that I'm talking about her character generally, which may not be great, but about this specific incident.

Not disagreeing with anything you said....the video pretty much demonstrates that this girl was pretty high-functioning in her ability to recognize the abusive situation and set up video to record it. So the question is: Why sit on it for this long when she could have turned it over to the authorities at any time?  Why did she wait until her "income" was being cut off (and when Daddy is up for re-election) to release the video?

There may have been one victim in the video....but there aren't any "victims" today.....
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2011, 10:40:17 AM »
Extremely violent words, use of a weapon, and duration.   

If it would be a crime for him to do this to his wife (and obviously it would), there's no rational way to explain why it shouldn't be a crime for him to do it to his 16 year old disabled daughter.

If I grounded my wife, do you think that would be legal? Wouldn't let her go out with her friends? What if I punished her bad behavior with some non-consensual open-hand spankings that she didn't agree to, and that made her cry? Or if I only let her eat what I put on the table? Would these be morally acceptable?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 10:55:54 AM by fistful »
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De Selby

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2011, 11:24:03 AM »
If I grounded my wife, do you think that would be legal? Wouldn't let her go out with her friends? What if I punished her bad behavior with some non-consensual open-hand spankings that she didn't agree to, and that made her cry? Or if I only let her eat what I put on the table?Would these be morally acceptable?


Only one of these "what ifs" is relevant here - no, it would not be legal, and its absurd for it to be a crime when it's your wife and not a crime when it's your daughter.

Morally acceptable?  Not in any place that recognizes individual rights and believes they apply to women as well as men.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2011, 12:30:38 PM »
Not disagreeing with anything you said....the video pretty much demonstrates that this girl was pretty high-functioning in her ability to recognize the abusive situation and set up video to record it. So the question is: Why sit on it for this long when she could have turned it over to the authorities at any time?  Why did she wait until her "income" was being cut off (and when Daddy is up for re-election) to release the video?

There may have been one victim in the video....but there aren't any "victims" today.....

Yeah, my "No winners here, move along..." answer seems to be increasingly my go-to response.

And the elephant in the room when it comes the "cycle of abuse" is no one ever questions the assumption that it is only the trauma and warping of the abuse, that turns the victim into a next generation abuser or otherwise screwy individual.

(Although I don't deny that doesn't happen, a lot, or is a big factor...)

However, I can't imagine that dirtbag parents who are prone to being abusive don't also just give rise to dirtbag kids that will be prone to being abusive or exhibit other sociopaths behaviors isn't sometimes a factor too.

I guess I'm a little predisposed to the "nature over nurture" argument. I'm intimately familiar with a few cases in my immediate circle of family and friends who've adopted kids as infants from really bad backgrounds (Parents were felons, or otherwise majorly screwed up) given the best parenting possible by the adoptive family, to only have the kids at best needing constant supervision to prevent severe anti-social behavior, and at the worst are now sitting in prison for murder as an adult.
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MechAg94

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2011, 12:36:02 PM »
Only one of these "what ifs" is relevant here - no, it would not be legal, and its absurd for it to be a crime when it's your wife and not a crime when it's your daughter.

Morally acceptable?  Not in any place that recognizes individual rights and believes they apply to women as well as men.
And your generalized blanket condemnation of spanking is idiotic and absurd.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2011, 01:34:18 PM »
What he did could quite likely be legal under Texas law. Community opprobium is what should punish him - happily, this man seems to hold an elected position.
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Jamie B

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2011, 02:22:52 PM »
I
The rule of thumb used to be the size of the stick you were allowed to beat your wife with ( same thickness as your thumb ) ...


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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2011, 02:44:26 PM »
I didn't watch the whole thing.

First things first. CP is not related to intellegence. It can cause speech impediments, but is not   assosiated with mental imparment.

IMHO, 16 is really too old for physical corrections. She is really too old for that. The parents went overboard.

However.

Kids a brat. Was purposely pushing them to their limits and beyond. I used to pull the same crap with my mother. Often. More then often.
She was sixteen, defient, spoiled, attention seeking and self rightous, with a LARGE dose of manipulative behaviors.

Bad parenting is a definate, probably a lot of emotional neglect and complete inabilty to understand or connect with the kid.

But don't tell me a 16 year old doesn't know what buttons not to push and how to deal with the fall out when she does to get the minimal punishment.

I wonder how often she had been told no bootlegging music? Bet it was often. Bet she knew their opinions on the subject very well. And certainly knew better then to let them catch her at it.
Bet that this was not her first offence either.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2011, 02:46:33 PM »
Quote
She was sixteen, defient, spoiled, attention seeking and self rightous, with a LARGE dose of manipulative behaviors.
/quotes]

If a 16-year-old is not defiant, something may be wrong.

Hell, if a 46-year-old is not defiant I'd say something is wrong too.
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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2011, 02:52:01 PM »
Add the manipulative and spoiled.

The result isn't pretty.

Trust me. I spent a LONG time getting over that *expletive deleted*it and growing up. You wouldn't beleive some crap I used to pull on my mother.

In all fairness, for me, I learned it from her, and I still consider it payback for crap she STILL pulls, but still, it can get nasty.
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wmenorr67

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2011, 03:03:33 PM »
Add the manipulative and spoiled.

The result isn't pretty.

Trust me. I spent a LONG time getting over that *expletive deleted* and growing up. You wouldn't beleive some crap I used to pull on my mother.

In all fairness, for me, I learned it from her, and I still consider it payback for crap she STILL pulls, but still, it can get nasty.

Yes we can Liz.  We all have been teenagers.  Some of us just longer ago than others.
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RevDisk

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2011, 05:00:33 PM »
I'm kinda on the fence.  I'm of the mind that some folks do need a beating, and that is possible to beat sense into folks.  However, of the times I've seen kids getting a spanking, most of the time it seemed like the parents were acting out of anger rather than the more noble desire to impart wisdom in such a harsh but necessary manner.  Hitting someone because you are angry does teach something.  Just not many good things.

OTOH, I believe kids are entitled as a human right to self-defense.  I was never hit as a child, and didn't need it either.  I pondered on the subject, because I heard "wise" adults claim that beating kids in school was a good idea.  I took the philosophical approach that if it was ever made legal again, I would defend myself as necessary.  It is perhaps unfortunate, but might does make right in the real world.  If I allowed an adult to attack me, I would partially morally deserve it.  Because I failed to uphold the converse of rights, which is responsibility.  It is the responsibility of every human to defend themselves and preserve the ability to do so, otherwise they are cattle and deserve to be cattle.  I have seen little in life to prove otherwise to me.  From an American high school to the mass graves of the world.

People only put down those that they can put down.  Folks have no problem beating a kid, because they can.  Those same folks oddly enough would not be so enthusiastic to say, pick a fight with Chuck Liddell or Georges St-Pierre.  You could argue it's because both of them are adults and thus are afforded certain rights by nature's creator, and you would be right.  However, that perception is backed up with the ability and will to fight.

Part of being a parent is teaching your kid to be a decent and responsible person.  Spoiling them is failing one's responsibility.  Failing to correct behavior which counterproductive (feelings of entitlement, poor work ethic, et al) is failing one's responsibility.  You use what you have to fulfill your responsibilities.  I view physical force as an option that is of last resort, because it can have nearly as many negative attributes as positive ones.  Unintended consequences and whatnot.  Deploying physical force in a crude, arrogant, emotional or stupid manner does little.  Deploying selective physical force in a controlled manner can be necessary and efficient.  I'm merely stating that a hammer does not make a good screwdriver.  A time and place for all things.


I guess I'm a little predisposed to the "nature over nurture" argument. I'm intimately familiar with a few cases in my immediate circle of family and friends who've adopted kids as infants from really bad backgrounds (Parents were felons, or otherwise majorly screwed up) given the best parenting possible by the adoptive family, to only have the kids at best needing constant supervision to prevent severe anti-social behavior, and at the worst are now sitting in prison for murder as an adult.

I'm of the opinion that nature is merely a predisposition, a "default choice" if a person does not choose to override it through action or inaction.  Everyone CAN override those to varying extents, but many choose not to do so. 

Yes, I have seen the same thing.  For good and bad. 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 05:04:06 PM by RevDisk »
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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2011, 05:52:01 PM »
Quote
Hitting someone because you are angry does teach something.  Just not many good things.

The only childhood belting that I really remember was done in anger, but taught me that it is not really funny to hide somewhere with your cousins and worry your mom and uncle and aunt sick because you have disappeared   :police:
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De Selby

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2011, 06:04:34 PM »
And your generalized blanket condemnation of spanking is idiotic and absurd.

Okay, go ahead and try explaining how it makes sense for it to be a serious crime to spank an unrelated woman, but no crime at all for a 16y ear old daughter - that's an honest question.  I think if you try to answer it you'll either have to come out saying it's ok to belt your wife, or wrong to belt a teenage daughter.
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RevDisk

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2011, 06:42:45 PM »
Okay, go ahead and try explaining how it makes sense for it to be a serious crime to spank an unrelated woman, but no crime at all for a 16y ear old daughter - that's an honest question.  I think if you try to answer it you'll either have to come out saying it's ok to belt your wife, or wrong to belt a teenage daughter.

If you insist.

Because outside of law enforcement or self-defense, there is no general legal responsibilities that involve beating an adult woman.  There is a legal responsibility to raise your kid.  The moral aspects to both get even more murky.  Thing is, there is a wide grey area between raising your kid that involves physical violence as an aide in teaching responsible behavior and physical abuse.  It's entirely subjective, as you see in this thread.  Some see any physical violence as bad, and others draw the line at something just short of the activities involved in Hostel or Saw.  I've known adults who saw it as a positive thing to get drunk and beat the hell out of their kid as recreational activity.  

So it's in the eye of the beholder, common public opinion or a judge.


In fairness, I see no moral difference between using physical violence as an instructional aid for children or adults.  To give an example, one time a soldier made a very crude and disrespectful sexual remark towards a female.  This female was an officer.  Obviously, there are strong ethical, moral, legal and practical implications to this behavior, which needed to be corrected.  Talking to the soldier in question would not have corrected the thought process behind the behavior, nor would even an Article 15.  The ethical, moral and practical solution was physical violence that was not physically permanently damaging.  In this case, a quick butt-stroke to the base of the skull, locking and loading a magazine in the M16, moving the selector switch to 3 round burst, and putting the muzzle in contact with the right eye socket.  The soldier learned more in about a second and a half than a month of restriction under an Article 15 about the proper conduct of an enlisted soldier in reference to proper comments and thought process towards an officer.  

According to a nonofficial and off the record discussion with a JAG officer, this action was entirely legal as the US was being at a time of war.  It technically would have been legal to pull the trigger under Articles 90 and 94 of the UCMJ.  Although legal, under normal circumstances, it was uh, military culturally disapproved.  Technically, legally, I'd be guilty if I did NOT do what I did under § 894, Article 94, Section A(3), "fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence".

Granted, special circumstances, but the idea is the same.  There is a time and place for physical violence.  It can be legally, morally and ethically tricky, and highly dependent on circumstances.
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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2011, 07:10:02 PM »
WRT how long it took her to get him in hot water? He taught her well, she really learned her lesson and all the various spankings certainly turned her into a model citizen.
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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2011, 08:55:46 PM »
Okay, go ahead and try explaining how it makes sense for it to be a serious crime to spank an unrelated woman, but no crime at all for a 16y ear old daughter - that's an honest question.  I think if you try to answer it you'll either have to come out saying it's ok to belt your wife, or wrong to belt a teenage daughter.

Slap her down again Pa, slap her down again
Make her tell us more Pa, tell us where she's been
We don't want our neighbors talkin' 'bout our kin
Slap her down again Pa, slap her down again
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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2011, 09:00:21 PM »
I learned that ^^^ on the knee of my grandpa, along with a score of dirty old limericks.

He might have settled down and got married, but he raised all sorts of Hell in E Iowa in the 1920s and 1930s.

Here are all the lyrics and a youtube recording:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd4kIvqGNek
http://www.allthelyrics.com/lyrics/arthur_godfrew/slap_her_down_again_pa-lyrics-1221922.html
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MechAg94

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Re: Judge beats daughter with belt NSFW.
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2011, 09:13:25 PM »
I would simply say that physical discipline and violence are not the same thing.  My Dad spanked me plenty of times though not as a teenager.  It was never done in anger and it was always made abundantly clear what I did wrong and why it was wrong.  In hindsight, it was never excessive either.  I didn't watch the whole video and I don't know if I would approve of the way this guy did it.  However, I would not equate it to assault and battery.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 09:23:39 PM by MechAg94 »
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