Bach, oh Bach...

[cosine]

Well, I did a little looking around. Very little is mentioned about his technical organ skills anywhere. On the net anyways. One line I caught stated he was considered an expert in organ design and construction. I can't see how that is possible without him placing his hands on a few to do more than just than play them.

I've been looking around a bit too, and it appears that what he learned in organ design and construction was done when he was young, like when he was a teenager. As he grew older he became a professional musician, but was still called upon to be a professional consultant in what he had learned about organ design, construction, and restoration when he was younger.

[K Frame]

It's true that Bach was considered an expert on organ construction and design, and was often consulted on the building of new organs, just as today famous race car drivers are occasionally called on to help design Detroit's newest, hottest offering. Does that mean that Mario Andretti or Jackie Stewart are really nothing more than simple grease monkeys?

What's there's not controversy about, are the many paid positions that Bach held as a professional musician at churchs and in the courts of German nobility.

He wasn't hired to those positions for his ability to repair organs, he was hired for his ability to play them, and many other instruments, as well as his growing reputation as a performer.

Take a look at this series of pages...

http://www.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/diversen/bach/map.html

[280plus]

Yes, I was a guitar major but was required to take piano and voice / sight singing. While I stopped playing a while back because I didn't have the proper amount of time to make a real go at it I still participate by helping to put on classical/ spanish / jazz style guitar related performances in the Hartford area. Got a big one coming up Saturday night "The Legends of Jazz" featuring "Bucky" Pizzarelli and Gene Bertoncine. Bucky plays a 7 string btw having an extra string in the bass tuned to "A" If you are not familiar with him he the father of the "Wonder of it All" Foxwoods guy John Pizzarelli. (who ALSO plays a 7 string).

I started guitar late in life so I was far behind my counterparts who had begun playing when they were just children. I had started studying because I was interested in the instrument and wanted to learn top play better. I had never considered making a carreer out of it. Some day I'll pick it up again and knock the dust off of MY Bach too.

[280plus]

Does that mean that Mario Andretti or Jackie Stewart are really nothing more than simple grease monkeys?

Does THAT mean they never got in there and got their hands dirty?

[cosine]

Take a look at this series of pages...

http://www.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/diversen/bach/map.html

That's a great link. Thanks!

[K Frame]

Here we go...

"Bach's appointment at Arnstadt was attributable to his reputation as one who had technical expertise in pipe organ design and construction. As a youngster in Eisenach, Ohrdruf and Lüneburg, it was Sebastian's good fortune that these towns had undertaken renovations of the organs in their various churches. In view of his instinctive curiosity and keen ear for the acoustical properties of instruments and interior spaces, there can be little doubt that Sebastian was a frequent companion of the guildsmen in charge of these reconstructions, if not an active participant himself."

From this page... http://www2.nau.edu/~tas3/arnstadt.html#technical


That passage makes a crucial distinction that I'd not thought of before...

Organ makers and repairers in those days were guild members. They had to be. It was highly skilled and in many ways was sort of a "closed shop" type of arrangement. Organs were, until the advent of the industrial revolution, the single most complex mechanical devices on the face of he earth.

There's no evidence at all that Bach ever apprenticed to a guildsman at any point in his life, and from the fair amount that's know of his life up through his 20s, when he began to receive patronage positions, there's simply no time in which he could have apprenticed for the term that would have been required to learn the art.

[K Frame]

"Does THAT mean they never got in there and got their hands dirty?"

Of course not.

But as I noted, the fact that they did does not mean that they were simple mechanics.

[280plus]

I agree. I just tend to think that Bach was basically wailing away at the organ while others wrote it down and from those "recordings" picking and choosing to put together his major pieces. Not unlike today where an artist will record countless hours of music and pick from it to put his or her CD together. AFAIK that's just a theory on my part though. It's an impression I've gotten from hearing different things about it over the years. I haven't pursued it.

[K Frame]

Would it be physically possible for someone to transcribe music that quickly, essentially live while someone was improvising?

Especially on an organ?

Just trying to figure out the stop settings would be a frigging nightmare.

[cosine]

I don't know if Bach would improvise while someone else wrote it down. I'll bet it was more like he'd improvise, really like what he just played, and then write it down himself. If I'm improvising, I can remember what I played long enough to write it down if I want to remember it.

[cosine]

Would it be physically possible for someone to transcribe music that quickly, essentially live while someone was improvising?

Especially on an organ?

Just trying to figure out the stop settings would be a frigging nightmare.

The only way to do it is with notation software. Writing music out by hand is way slower than playing it and letting the computer transcribe it for you.

[K Frame]

"The only way to do it is with notation software. Writing music out by hand is way slower than playing it and letting the computer transcribe it for you."

Exactly.

It's been show that people with this kind of gift can often improvise and then hours, or even days later, write down almost exactly what they played.

Baroque music was also very formulaic in many ways, which would have been an aid to someone trying to go back and remember what he had done.

[...has left the building.]

You know, I can't recall ever listening to any of Paganini's works. I really ought to.

You should check him out! He was completely loco (just like any great composer).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganini

[Perd Hapley]

What about Kerosene Hat by Cracker, and The Clinch Mountain Backstep?

um,  I love Cracker.

um,  I love Cracker.

Everyone should.

Want to fill me in a bit? Never heard of those two.

Cracker is a rock/country/blues group.  Their only connection to orchestral music is that they evolved from an earlier band called Camper Van Beethoven.

The Clinch Mountain Backstep is an instrumental piece by Ralph Stanley and his Clinch Mountain Boys, one of the progenitors of bluegrass music.

Oh, did you say I was off-topic?  Yeah, I guess so.

[280plus]

Oh, see that, I thought we were talking about UNCLE Cracker...


Anyhoo, in my days in school I DID know this Korean woman that could take down notation live. It CAN be done, I've seen it. As far as the stops? Inconsequential I'd say and could be added or altered later. My thought is that in his travels as an organ consultant he ran them through the wringer with improvised works that were written down by others including his second wife in later years. I notice he was quite prolific at breeding as well as producing music. Sure it's possible that he too would remember a particular passage and write it down later.

I also knew this blind woman who had perfect pitch. You could hit any note on the piano and she would tell you what it was. Every time. There are some amazing people out there.

[K Frame]

Given the complexity and speed at which many of his pieces are played, I'd say real-time transcription would be impossible by anyone...

[cosine]

Oh, did you say I was off-topic?  Yeah, I guess so.

I don't mind. I always like to find new music to listen to.

There are some amazing people out there.

Yeah, and I ain't one of them.

[cosine]

Given the complexity and speed at which many of his pieces are played, I'd say real-time transcription would be impossible by anyone...

Ah, well, differences of opinion. I doubt that it's really all that important regarding how Bach transcribed him music.

[280plus]

I don't know, I'm pretty sure I recall being told his wife Anna was doing this and my Korean friend was capable of handling just about anything, she was what you call a prodigy. Were they catching it all? Hard to say. Like I said, it's hard to remember where or when I heard all this. I'll be seeing some local music big wigs Saturday, I'll bring it up and see what kind of response I get.

[280plus]

I doubt that it's really all that important regarding how Bach transcribed him music.

Probably you're right. The point I'm trying to get at is, providing my "theory" has any merit, Bach had the advantage of playing just about anything he wanted extemporaneously, without the written page between him and the keyboard while the rest of us are stuck TRYING to replicate this by reading the result from a piece of paper. This gives him a distinct advantage. It's like, Jonny is wailing on his quitar improvising away, someone else, somehow, manages to notate what he has played. Will anyone be able to take those notes and from them replicate every nuance Jonny threw into the mix? Not likely. Or another way to look at it is everytime Bach played even one of his OWN pieces I'd venture even HE  never played ANY of them exactly the same way twice. Neither will Jonny.

oh well gtg again, I'll probably be back (or should I say Bach) later so you can yell at me some more.

[cosine]

I'll bring it up and see what kind of response I get.

Be sure to let us know what answer you get, please. I'm as interested in this as you are.

[280plus]

Absolutely. I still don't think I've expressed my ideas correctly though. Bear with me.

My contention is that Bach, in his work as an organ consultant, had unlimited access to playing extemporaneously in the process of checking the instruments he was involved with. He HAD to play something that would incorporate all the keys stops pedals etc as a rule which he became quite adept at as time went on. He wasn't limited to playing specific pieces for hire, he could literally just fool around and get paid for it. So I feel a lot of the time he wasn't specifically composing music but more experimenting with ways to test an organ. Meanwhile someone else had the foresight to write these "musings" (if you will) down which he may have very well incorporated into some of his greater works. AND some that were entire improvisations that later became established as equally great works. Whew! I THINK I got it now.

$5 says the big wigs laugh at me.

LOL...

[cosine]

Absolutely. I still don't think I've expressed my ideas correctly though. Bear with me.

My contention is that Bach, in his work as an organ consultant, had unlimited access to playing extemporaneously in the process of checking the instruments he was involved with. He HAD to play something that would incorporate all the keys stops pedals etc as a rule which he became quite adept at as time went on. He wasn't limited to playing specific pieces for hire, he could literally just fool around and get paid for it. So I feel a lot of the time he wasn't specifically composing music but more experimenting with ways to test an organ. Meanwhile someone else had the foresight to write these "musings" (if you will) down which he may have very well incorporated into some of his greater works. AND some that were entire improvisations that later became established as equally great works. Whew! I THINK I got it now.

$5 says the big wigs laugh at me.

LOL...

Glad you were able to get it. Explained that way, it sounds very reasonable. Be sure to let us know if the big wigs laugh at you though.

[280plus]

Wouldn't be the first time. The first thing everybody wants is rock solid evidence. That's the hard part.

[Standing Wolf]

The Bach-Brandenburg concertos are among the crowning achievements of mankind.

That's been my opinion for about four decades now. Wouldn't it be wonderful if someone were to do something similar, but completely new, today?