Author Topic: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.  (Read 26503 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2011, 09:58:08 PM »
OK, I missed it.  "No doy????"

Variant form of "no duh," back in the eighties. And if you don't remember "no duh," it was like saying, "no kidding," or other, less polite sayings.
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CNYCacher

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2011, 01:35:41 AM »
I find great amusement in the fact that Newt Gingrich parroting Ron Paul's plan for SS is what got you "firmly in the Gingrich camp".
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2011, 05:37:57 AM »
I find great amusement in the fact that Newt Gingrich parroting Ron Paul's plan for SS is what got you "firmly in the Gingrich camp".

There is no Ron Paul.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2011, 08:12:43 AM »
I find great amusement in the fact that Newt Gingrich parroting Ron Paul's plan for SS is what got you "firmly in the Gingrich camp".

It amuses you that Ron Paul shares a policy position with another member of his party?  ???
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makattak

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2011, 08:24:36 AM »
I find great amusement in the fact that Newt Gingrich parroting Ron Paul's plan for SS is what got you "firmly in the Gingrich camp".

I've said many times that I agree with much of what Ron Paul says. Unfortunately, his view of the Fed and foreign policy make him FAR from being my first choice. (But I prefer him to Romney.)
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slingshot

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 12:31:57 PM »
Ron Paul has some good ideas.  His foreign policy beliefs are where I just can't support him.  But the fact that he is somewhat popular is great to have him again in the mix for the Republican nomination.  Ideas from one candidate are often shared or brought forward by another candidate.  It is the way our polictial system works.

One thing that has troubled me since the discussions about Obama Care being unconstitutional is that I believe Social Security is almost the same sort of thing.  A tax is essentially forced onto the wage maker for a program that he will utilize in the future.  But, for the most part, their is no choice involved.  I think a partial privatization is a good idea as at least the individual feels some impowerment with the private portion of the plan.  In a perfect world, the US would not essentially place social security tax collections into the general fund and there would in fact be a "trust fund". 

As I have said before, I think the whole tax structure currently in place needs to be nearly completely dropped in favor of more of a consumption based tax or a hybrid like Cain's 9-9-9 plan.  I think the 9-9-9 plan is pretty ingenius in its simplicity and much of the infrastructure necessary to implement such a new system is already in place.  I believe if you live in this country and the government is supported by tax collections, then all working people should have to contribute whether you make 25K or 250K in earnings. Everyone benefits from the basic functions of the govenment.  Just because you are Bill Gates doesn't earn you the right to get better deals on taxation.  But he should not have to pay any more (% basis) than a typical middle class person.  I can understand why a person like Bill Gates or the rich in general feel they should have more input into what happens in government.  That makes them "more-equal", but that has always been a fact of life whether you live in the US or Germany.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2011, 02:16:17 PM »
I find great amusement in the fact that Newt Gingrich parroting Ron Paul's plan for SS is what got you "firmly in the Gingrich camp".

The last two responses are commonplace, from conservatives who don't support Ron Paul. We like a lot of his domestic policy, but differ on monetary and/or foreign policy. Anyone who has hung around on this board as long as you have has to have heard this a million times, yet you respond as if you hadn't.  =|

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ssn vet

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2011, 03:13:52 PM »
Newt is probably the smartest of the lot.... and I think he really does get it....

But.... I think he became a compromised political creatin' a long time ago.

I think we're stuck with the O-man for another 4 years....

but I'm not sure it really matters.

I fear that our government is hopelessly broken and broke beyond the point of no return.
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seeker_two

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2011, 04:52:54 PM »
It amuses you that Ron Paul shares a policy position with another member of his party?  ???

It amuses me that Gingrich might actually be in Paul's party....if you get my meaning.... ;)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2011, 06:23:56 PM »
It amuses me that Gingrich might actually be in Paul's party....if you get my meaning.... ;)

Not really.

Newt's stupid comments on immigration are about to make me decamp and go elsewhere. If he wants to win, he'll do his best to keep his mouth shut on immigration.

Gettin' real tired of hearing that if someone breaks the law and it hurts their family, those consequences are our fault, not the perpetrator's.   [ar15]
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MicroBalrog

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2011, 06:29:55 PM »
The last two responses are commonplace, from conservatives who don't support Ron Paul. We like a lot of his domestic policy, but differ on monetary and/or foreign policy. Anyone who has hung around on this board as long as you have has to have heard this a million times, yet you respond as if you hadn't.  =|



Do you seriously think Gingrich's domestic policy is identical to Ron Paul's? Or similar?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2011, 06:33:49 PM »
Do you seriously think Gingrich's domestic policy is identical to Ron Paul's? Or similar?

Did you seriously get that from reading my post? No, I don't.

You don't seem to be reading my posts anymore; just scanning for a few key words and reacting.
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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2011, 09:43:17 PM »
Just when Newt was becoming The Great Inevitable he steps in it on immigration.  Perhaps a symptom of his religious conversion?  I think he's not considering the impact of creating a "displaced" population of Not Quite Citizens who became legal residents by default, probably against the popular will.  And of course he's ignoring, as just about everyone does by design or ignorance, the huge cultural impact of a sub-culture that really isn't fully committed to assimilation in a society where assimilation has become a dirty word for many.  If "humanitarianism" makes us ignore the rule of law and discredit the individual at the expense of "the family"--some might call it the tribe--we will die of compassion.  Perhaps that's to be our nation's fate.
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roo_ster

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2011, 09:00:30 AM »
Just when Newt was becoming The Great Inevitable he steps in it on immigration.  Perhaps a symptom of his religious conversion?  I think he's not considering the impact of creating a "displaced" population of Not Quite Citizens who became legal residents by default, probably against the popular will.  And of course he's ignoring, as just about everyone does by design or ignorance, the huge cultural impact of a sub-culture that really isn't fully committed to assimilation in a society where assimilation has become a dirty word for many.  If "humanitarianism" makes us ignore the rule of law and discredit the individual at the expense of "the family"--some might call it the tribe--we will die of compassion.  Perhaps that's to be our nation's fate.

I don't give a damn about "humans" in general, but I care deeply about Americans in particular.  Screw humanitarianism.
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Blakenzy

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2011, 04:38:41 AM »
Newt Gingrich on the Patriot Act:
Quote
I think looking at it carefully and extending and building an honest understanding that all of us will be in danger for the rest of our lives. This is not going to end in the short-run and we need to be able to protect ourselves from those who, if they could, would not just kill us individually but would take out entire cities

No, I would not change it. I’m not aware of any specific change it needs and I would look at strengthening it because the dangers are literally that great….again, very sharp division. Criminal law, the government should be, frankly, on defense and you’re innocent until proven guilty. National security – the government should have many more tools in order to save our lives.

Well, I think looking at it carefully that he is a fearmonger and advocate of a police state. We are going to be in danger forever so we might as well just accept the "emergency powers" as permanent. Hell, let's expand them! Sacrifice your liberty for security, right Newt?.... go suck on a lemon. The Patriot Act isn't about National Security, it's about Securing the State.




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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2011, 05:41:55 PM »
What we need is not the Patriot Act but patriotic action.

We have needed since 9/11 to mobilize as a nation--not go shopping--and take arms against our real enemies with the desire to end the threat, not fight multiple wars of attrition in theater after theater. 

Ron Paul is correct, in my view, that some supposedly on our side are part of the problem though maybe not in the way he believes.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2011, 06:00:41 PM »
There is not - repeat  not - an Overriding Civilizational Threat to America posed by the semi-literate camel-herders. Even if many Muslims were not on the side of the West - as many Muslims are - even if the entire Islamic world rose united against us, it would take very little effort to stomp it flat. In the real world, of course, we have two likely outcomes:

1. America (and Europe) will weather the oncoming storm by adjusting their economic systems to a somewhat more efficient manner. Perhaps the United States budget will be balanced, or perhaps it will not. Economic growth right now is at 2.5%. This keeps up and you will see a fall in unemployment, and the public eye will again be averted from economic issues. If this were to happen, the system will be saved once more, and we will continue living in a "third way" economy, with a limited amount of economic growth and wealth, but far less than what could be had.

2. The system will be done away with and replaced with a system of individual  and economic liberty.
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TommyGunn

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2011, 06:18:08 PM »
I think we're going to need to see better than a 2.5% to see jobs being added to the economy.  A 5% or greater rate is what I think it will take ... and I don't see that happening in the next year.
.....
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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2011, 06:39:44 PM »
It remains to be seen as to how the caucusing/primaries will choose obama's opponent.  That being said, Romney has a lot of money spend on beating his opponents like a red-headed step children.  I am not is Romney's corner, heck there isn't a one I am happy with. 
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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2011, 08:27:32 PM »
There is not - repeat  not - an Overriding Civilizational Threat to America posed by the semi-literate camel-herders. Even if many Muslims were not on the side of the West - as many Muslims are - even if the entire Islamic world rose united against us, it would take very little effort to stomp it flat.

There is not - repeat  not - an Overriding Civilizational Threat to Rome posed by the semi-literate sheep-herders. Even if many Barbarians were not on the side of the West - as many Barbarians are - even if the entire Barbarous world rose united against us, it would take very little effort to stomp it flat.
"Domari nolo."

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MicroBalrog

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2011, 08:46:01 PM »
There is not - repeat  not - an Overriding Civilizational Threat to Rome posed by the semi-literate sheep-herders. Even if many Barbarians were not on the side of the West - as many Barbarians are - even if the entire Barbarous world rose united against us, it would take very little effort to stomp it flat.

I think you will find that the Barbarians would have been outraged if you compared them to the semi-literate sheep-herders.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2011, 09:10:06 PM »
longeyes, you're missing the point. The point is, we either vote for Ron Paul, or we sign on for more foreign wars and daily cavity searches in every home and office, forever.

There is no middle ground. Ron Paul is our only Hope for Change.
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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2011, 09:16:54 PM »
I refuse to choose between Scylla and Charybdis when I still have a stout ship and good oarsmen.  The choice is not either Ron Paul or a police state.  We do have external enemies; the issue is how to deal with them intelligently.  (Have we been doing this?  Not sufficiently, and there I agree with R.P.)

Besides, Ron Paul is not going to get the nomination, as we both know.

Give me an example of what a Paulestine America would look like.  Switzerland writ large?  Sweden? 
"Domari nolo."

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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2011, 09:19:44 PM »
I think you will find that the Barbarians would have been outraged if you compared them to the semi-literate sheep-herders.

The point is, the barbarians are already inside the gates, and inside the minds of many of our own.

Give a smart Goth a WMD and you've got trouble in the Eternal City.
"Domari nolo."

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MicroBalrog

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2011, 09:31:55 PM »
longeyes, you're missing the point. The point is, we either vote for Ron Paul, or we sign on for more foreign wars and daily cavity searches in every home and office, forever.

There is no middle ground. Ron Paul is our only Hope for Change.

Let us be rational here.

The welfare state can be either abolished rapidly (over the course of, say, a decade), slowly (in the same manner it was instituted, over the course of fifty or sixty years), or continued for generations, with slight adjustments (it can also collapse in a violent perturbation like the Russian Empire. I think it won't happen in our lifetime, and certainly not this go-around).

In the American 2012 Presidential Primary we (you, actually, but I'm hoping you respect my opinion despite me not having a horse in this race) have the following groups of political candidates available to us:

A. People who want to abolish the welfare state (Ron Paul and Gary Johnson).

B. People who want to reduce the welfare state meaningfully (Herman Cain, Michelle Bachmann, and no doubt some others I've not listed).

C. People who want to keep the welfare state but adjust it to suit their political sensibilities (Mitt Romney, Rick Perry, and Newt Gingrich).

People in Group C are basically Democrats rebranded. If they are nominated and elected it would be terrible news, perhaps even worse than an Obama nomination - it would instruct t he pundits that 'radicals' can be safely ignored, and the GOP would, like in pre-Goldwater years, become simply another part of the establishment.
 
People in Group B might improve the situation somewhat and one of them is nominated it would be a good thing for America and, in the long-run, for the world. But it would resign us - at the very least for the next eight years - to the option of gnawing sadly, miserably, on the welfare state, like Edmond Dantes gnawing on the walls of Castle If.

Ron Paul (or, on the outside of things, Gary Johnson, or, if this dilemma re-occurs in a future nomination, Someone Quite Like Him, there's no reason it needs to be this specific Pennsylvania-born Texas doctor) being nominated (much less winning) would be a glorious and wonderful thing for civilization, for reasons I will explain in my next post.

The important thing to understand is that this dilemma is not  the dilemma of Ron Paul the specific person. Ron Paul the specific person has drawbacks and shortcomings, and quite likely is going to lose the primary. But the principles  apply to Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, whatever Future Ron Paul someone will run in 2016.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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