Computer privileges revoked - permanently!

[Jamie B]

You people are either too literal or not literal enough.

Trying again.

Children are not indebted to their parents for their life or their raising.

You made them, you raise them, they are not obligated to pay you back (be it emotionally or finacially) for that.

And I think it is wrong to tell them so. If they choose to do so, it's because they want to. But it's up to them.

I never said you have to give them cool/nice things. You only have to meet the most basic obligations. I would hope you would do more, but that's up to you. I also don't think you should give them any damn cool/nice thing they like, either.

The daughter had some opinions about her parents. She expressed them. Regardless of there legitmacy, she had a right to do both (yes, children have rights) and he, as a person, had the right to retalate.
But his retaliation was not what I would consider to be good parenting, because he tromped all over his childs rights, which only teaches her that she doesn't have any.

You accuse me of infantilising, yet you support this dad for doing that very thing to his daughter?

By God, yes children are indebted to their parents.

[dogmush]

By God, yes children are indebted to their parents.

How much? What's the going rate on an upbringing?

[BlueStarLizzard]

How much? What's the going rate on an upbringing?

And when did they sign up for this agreement?

[Jamie B]

It is based upon love, respect, and cohesive family values.

[dogmush]

It is based upon love, respect, and cohesive family values.

Ironic post is ironic.

[Jamie B]

Ironic post is ironic.

How so?

[BlueStarLizzard]

It is based upon love, respect, and cohesive family values.

*snort* so you are saying I owe the sperm doner that knocked up my mother love and respect because he called himself my father?

Or I owe these things to my mother for bearing me, feeding me, and bitching to me about how much I screwed up her life?

No. Parents have to earn those things from their children.

Children are not obligated to their parents unless they choose to be.

Good parents earn it. Bad parents don't.

[dogmush]

How so?

Really? 

If the parents had respect, either for the kid or the family, they wouldn't need to engender a feeling of indebtedness in the child.

[Jamie B]

*snort* so you are saying I owe the sperm doner that knocked up my mother love and respect because he called himself my father?

Or I owe these things to my mother for bearing me, feeding me, and bitching to me about how much I screwed up her life?

No. Parents have to earn those things from their children.

Children are not obligated to their parents unless they choose to be.

Good parents earn it. Bad parents don't.

Sorry family was so bad for you.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Sorry family was so bad for you.

I'm not. I am who I am because of them.

Still not paying them for it though.

[Jamie B]

Really? 

If the parents had respect, either for the kid or the family, they wouldn't need to engender a feeling of indebtedness in the child.

That is not how it works in a solid and strong family.
Obviously this is a concept that you do not understand. Your loss.

[dogmush]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

FWIW, my relationship with my parents is strong and just fine.

But child-raising isn't a binary solution set.  Raise yours however you want, and I'll continue to avoid the whole issue.

[Tuco]

If the parents had respect, either for the kid or the family, they wouldn't need to engender a feeling of indebtedness in the child.

We've got brainiacs coming out of the woodwork!
I'm going to run out of cigars in no time flat.

[red headed stranger]

That is not how it works in a solid and strong family.
Obviously this is a concept that you do not understand. Your loss.

A solid and strong family inspires mutual loyalty, love and respect.  It does not impose these things with manipulation and threats.  

[Tuco]

That is not how it works in a solid and strong family.
Obviously this is a concept that you do not understand. Your loss.

The father in post #1 didn't understand it either, and made an ass of himself in front of the world bragging himself up.
His loss, too.

[Tuco]

A solid and strong family inspires mutual loyalty, love and respect.  It does not impose these things with manipulation and threats.  

Maduro or colorado wrapper?

I'll have to keep a bundle of elRopeos around for
... for just such an emergency.

[Perd Hapley]

Ratger irrelevant here.

Once you choose to give someone a gift -and by their nature gifts are things you do not HAVE to give - it is no longer yours.

Are gifts relevant to this thread? Was one of these children given something?

And is anything a minor child owns outside the control of their parents?

[MicroBalrog]

Are gifts relevant to this thread? Was one of these children given something?

And is anything a minor child owns outside the control of their parents?

Now you are being obtuse on purpose.

[Perd Hapley]

Now you are being obtuse on purpose.

Nope.

Unless I missed something (and I might have), you're assuming that anything a parent provides for a child (the cellphone and car that csdaddy mentioned) are gifts.

I don't have the patience to watch poorly-trained public speakers, so I didn't watch the laptop-shooter's video. Did he give the computer to the girl, or did he just allow her to use it? If he did give it to her, how much difference does that make, in terms of real ownership? If she's sixteen, can she really expect to have real ownership and control of "her" property? (That is, if she lives in the real world, not in Microbalrog fantasy land where all adolescents are full and responsible adults.)

Did that lady give the car to her son, or did she retain the title to it, and allow him to use it?

[MicroBalrog]

Title is not ownership, of course. It is the legal representation of ownership. We all know stories of people who own automobiles and houses but have them in their wife's (brother's, son's, etc.) name for a variety of reasons.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Ratger irrelevant here.

Once you choose to give someone a gift -and by their nature gifts are things you do not HAVE to give - it is no longer yours.

ironic isn't it that you would use the word irrelevant as you interject gift giving into a discussion about what one is obligated to provide.  kinda like arguing with a teenager

http://libertycorner.blogspot.com/2006/03/adolescent-rebellion-syndrome.html
"Yes, radical libertarians tend to be just as jejune as their counterparts on the Left. "

[dogmush]

Title is not ownership, of course. It is the legal representation of ownership. We all know stories of people who own automobiles and houses but have them in their wife's (brother's, son's, etc.) name for a variety of reasons.

Without taking Fistful's side on the kids, I would be of the opinion that those folks don't actually own those houses and cars.  They may have possesion of them, but especially in houses and cars, pretty much who the title says is the owner.

[Perd Hapley]

Title is not ownership, of course. It is the legal representation of ownership. We all know stories of people who own automobiles and houses but have them in their wife's (brother's, son's, etc.) name for a variety of reasons.

You're not answering whether any of the items discussed were gifts. Like the folks writing those NYLA (NYRA?, whatever) articles, you're just talking about them like they were gifts, without bothering to confirm. And still, how can a minor expect "their" property to be outside their parents' control?

In the case of the Hambletons' car, no one is denying that the car was supplied with conditions, and that violation of the conditions was the stated reason for taking the car back. Doesn't sound like much of a gift, then.

[roo_ster]

That is not how it works in a solid and strong family.
Obviously this is a concept that you do not understand. Your loss.

Yes, it is their loss.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

A solid and strong family inspires mutual loyalty, love and respect.  It does not impose these things with manipulation and threats.  

nor does it allow a child to extort by manipulation and game playing.  and yes thats a natural thing for many kids and most adolescents