It is getting Ugly in Greece....

[TommyGunn]

How is this an image of Chavez?   Far from perfect, but he does actually run fair elections and abide by the results.   Winning elections and then implementing what you campaigned on (especially when ou do it by emphasizing local government, as Chavez does) is not dictatorial.

Tommygunn, what's the evil you think Chavez is visiting on Venezuelans?  There can be no doubt that they are on average richer, healthier, and better educated today than prior to his election.  Nor that Venezuela actually has free elections, something that wasn't the case in the past either.

I think the rants against Chavez are based on his clownish behaviour and rhetoric, and not on his actual results, which have so far been good for most Venezuelans.

De Selby, in case you've had your ****head up your **** , Chavez has been confiscating privatly owned land and turning it over to people he deems should own it.  He has shut down radio stations.  He has nationalized oil companies, and they are no longer as profitable as they were.
I told you before I have been there, done that, seen the people, LONG before Hugo "the clown" Chavez infested the high political office he does now.  There is no question that Venezuelans are much worse off now than before.
 If you REALLY THINK confiscating property is something benign and transcendental and beneficent, I invite you to get your Aussie @$$ over hear and try confiscating mine ... and I will show you what the 2nd amendment to the Bill of Rights is all about.
Sometimes I think you are deliberatly naive and have a bunch of rocks in your skull.  Do you REALLY like tyrants?  You REALLY think what I've described above is  GOOD THING?
If so, then may God help you...........

[Monkeyleg]

Chavez's upcoming election sounds pretty fair. The state-run media is saying that his opponent is corrupt, is a homosexual, and a "Zionist agent". State-run TV ran a program that said that Mr. Capriles (Chavez's opponent) was caught having sex with another man in a car. Right before the primaries, the host of a show on government-run TV said that Capriles "used his influence to force police to drop indecency charges" after the 2000 car incident.

I'd say that was pretty corrupt, but it's probably mild compared to what Obama's going to do.

[De Selby]

Chavez's upcoming election sounds pretty fair. The state-run media is saying that his opponent is corrupt, is a homosexual, and a "Zionist agent". State-run TV ran a program that said that Mr. Capriles (Chavez's opponent) was caught having sex with another man in a car. Right before the primaries, the host of a show on government-run TV said that Capriles "used his influence to force police to drop indecency charges" after the 2000 car incident.

I'd say that was pretty corrupt, but it's probably mild compared to what Obama's going to do.

Wait a second there - alleging that he's sexually deviant and corrupt aren't state media stories, those are what Chavez himself and his party are saying.

How's that different from what was said about the clintons???  And how is it tyrannical???

This is the thing - I keep seeing the labels thrown about left and right, but examples of actually tyrannical behaviour fail to materialize.   

Tommygunn, I'm an American, and no, I don't think land seizures make a country more miserable than land barons who use their wealth to buy officials and market drugs.  It's hard to shed tears for the farms seized by Chavez when you have a quick look at how those people acquired their property in the first place.

A side note, one of Chavez's most popular initiatives is to recognise land title to homes built without government permits - he was going through poorer urban areas that had been built without approval from corrupt planning officials and recognizing the moral rights to ownership of those homes.

But don't count that as anything other than bad!  He seized a few millionares farms, so he's obviously ruining his country.  Or not.

[TommyGunn]

Tommygunn, I'm an American, and no, I don't think land seizures make a country more miserable than land barons who use their wealth to buy officials and market drugs.  It's hard to shed tears for the farms seized by Chavez when you have a quick look at how those people acquired their property in the first place.

A side note, one of Chavez's most popular initiatives is to recognise land title to homes built without government permits - he was going through poorer urban areas that had been built without approval from corrupt planning officials and recognizing the moral rights to ownership of those homes.

But don't count that as anything other than bad!  He seized a few millionares farms, so he's obviously ruining his country.  Or not.

Well I guess he must be a wonderful humanitarian then.  Why don't you go live in Venezuela.  I'm sure there are NO corrupt officials in Aussieland to sell land cheap to bazillionaire land barons.  
No matter how you cut it the guy is a political thug.
Remember that Mussolini got the trains running on time and Al Capone set up soup kitchens in Chicago during the depression.  Both of those were thugs of one type or another.
Sure he is far from throwing Jews in ovens like Hitler, but he's still a **** socialist and there is little good in that.
The fact he isn't as nasty of a socialist as Hitler was can perhaps be explained by the fact that he's too busy being a downright NUTTY one he doesn't have energy left over for anything more serious.  EG, the @ssh@t speech he gave at the UN after Dubya, when he whined about the smell of sulpher still being there.  Good grief. 
There are far better political leaders -- even in South America.

[Monkeyleg]

DeSelby, is the Huffington Post far enough left for you to consider a reliable source? I hope so. Here you go:

CARACAS, Venezuela — Prominent Jewish groups urged President Hugo Chavez on Friday to prevent what they called anti-Semitic attacks on the opposition's presidential candidate by Venezuelan state media.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center condemned a column that described the Jewish ancestry of opposition leader Henrique Capriles Radonski and labeled him a secret follower of Zionism, which it called "the most rotten sentiments represented by humanity."

The New York-based Anti-Defamation League also voiced concern.

"Blatant and persistent anti-Semitism is used by President Chavez and his government apparatus as a divisive political tool," Abraham Foxman, the organization's director, said in a statement.

"What we are seeing at the outset of Venezuela's presidential elections is an attempt to cast the opposition candidate as a 'traitorous Jew' who is unworthy of the presidency," Foxman said.

The column written by Adal Hernandez was posted on the website of state-run Radio Nacional de Venezuela on Monday.

Mario Silva, a staunch Chavez ally who hosts a late-night talk show on state television called "La Hojilla," or "The Razor Blade," recently suggested that Capriles is gay.

Citing an alleged police report, Silva said police officers spotted Capriles engaged in a sexual act with another man. Capriles denied the accusation.

[AJ Dual]

Dick, I doubt it matters.

The Harrison Bergeron mindset that is at the core of most leftists means they'll always eventually turn on the Jews once enough power is attained. Some of the antisemitism seen at the 99% rallies is case in point.

Of course, the persecution of Jews in actual Communist states is well documented too.

Jews in America tend to lean Left, because (with notable exceptions of course) they associate (incorrectly) all things politically Right with the Holocaust, and they desperately want to believe in the facade of tolerance that the Left cloaks itself in.  Of course, once the class-warfare rhetoric begins in earnest, the Jews, who traditionally always do "better than average" because of their networking, emphasis on education, and their general cultural practices and expectations for themselves and their families... Puts them right in the cross hairs.

[MicroBalrog]

There's also the inherent mistrust Jewish culture has of the common man.

The idea is that pogroms/the new holocaust/whatever can start off ANY MINUTE NOW.

As such we should not have, say, gun ownership. Because we will be shot with these guns once the pogroms start.

This is of course stupid. It is double-stupid when applied in Israel.

[Ron]

Interesting article on Argentina.

http://www.economist.com/node/21548242

Looking to left wing authoritarian Chavez in Venezuela or Argentina who is currently experiencing hyper inflation may not be the best economic advice.

PriceStats, a specialist provider of inflation rates which produces figures for 19 countries that are published by State Street, a financial services firm, puts the annual rate at 24.4% and cumulative inflation since the beginning of 2007 at 137%.

http://www.economist.com/node/21548229

[Monkeyleg]

Them's Jimmy Carter numbers, Ron. Maybe we should ask him for advice.

[agricola]

Interesting article on Argentina.

http://www.economist.com/node/21548242

Looking to left wing authoritarian Chavez in Venezuela or Argentina who is currently experiencing hyper inflation may not be the best economic advice.

http://www.economist.com/node/21548229

Argentina cant be in trouble - if they were, their Government would be hyping up the Falklands dispute for all its worth in a desperate attempt to decoy the masses away from noticing that their leaders are ruining the national economy for at least the third time in the past thirty years.  That is, after all, the SOP when it comes to political crises over there.

Oh.

[De Selby]

Monkeyleg, I was attempting to agree with you, emphasizing that the Government itself was making those accusations - and the point stands, which is, what's the difference between that and our campaigns???  They're not exactly soviet tactics.

Compare inflation numbers now to those prior to Chavez ( when the currency regulations weren't as tight )

Tommy, you keep flipping out about his land grabs, but ignore that he's cut poverty in half.  How many people would rather be starving but know that wealthy south American landlords were holding on to their mostly ill gotten lands???  What kind of measure are you using to determine that theyre all now worse off??

[MicroBalrog]

The Soviet Union had economic growth. Under Brezhnev, the life quality of Soviet citizens improved visibly, and was certainly higher  than under the Czar.

And yet, does anybody doubt the USSR would have been better off as a free-market democracy?

[De Selby]

The Soviet Union had economic growth. Under Brezhnev, the life quality of Soviet citizens improved visibly, and was certainly higher  than under the Czar.

And yet, does anybody doubt the USSR would have been better off as a free-market democracy?

What do we mean by "free market democracy" there?   Do we mean simple nonintervention by government in the economy?  If so we have plenty of examples of that failing miserably, to the extent that it makes the USSR look like a prosperous alternative.

The US economy has grown the most in times of huge expansions of Government spending and intervention - there are people who say it would have been even bigger without, but strangely sustained growth never manages to correlate with non-intervention or large spending cuts.

[TommyGunn]

De Selby I don't give a flipping wollop of a dab of spit hitting a leaf if he's doubled or quadrupled Venzuela's wealth it doesn't justify robbery.
You don't get it do you?  I HATE socialists and communists.  They're some of the most dangerous predators on the face of the planet.  In their commie form they've killed more innocent people than any other whacko including Hitler.

You know....maybe after grabbing all that land he actually has made Venezuela rich.  God knows he NEEDS that money for all thos Kalashnikovs he's bought 'cause you know the Bad Ol' US of A is gonna invade sooner or later.
You REALLY think it's ok to justify enriching coffers through theft?  
So if you steal from a theif, it's OK, because the theif stole it first?
How the *** do you know??  

I have enough problems with the jackwagons, asshats, goons, thugs, jerks, incompetents and dingbats who pass themselves off as politicians here in the United States.  I have less tolerance for the dirtbags in other nations who steal from "rich" people and give the proceeds to the poor to make themselves powerful and beneficient in the eyes of the sheeple they lord over.  It's bad enough when the people who have to live in such a country buy the tyrant's kool aide, I mean people have been doing that since the beginning of time.
What I don't get is when supposedly intelligent people (even if they live in upside-down land with weird animals)  start buying that kool aide.    
Then again a lot of people loved Al Capone .... his soup kitchens fed a lot of people during the depression..........

[TommyGunn]

What do we mean by "free market democracy" there?   Do we mean simple nonintervention by government in the economy?  If so we have plenty of examples of that failing miserably, to the extent that it makes the USSR look like a prosperous alternative.

The US economy has grown the most in times of huge expansions of Government spending and intervention - there are people who say it would have been even bigger without, but strangely sustained growth never manages to correlate with non-intervention or large spending cuts.

Yes it does we did very well before BIG Government came along.   As for big spending helping FDR tried to spend our way out of the Great Depression and that didn't work.  We've been over this before DeSelby....guess you've forgotten the lesson.

[MicroBalrog]

What do we mean by "free market democracy" there?   Do we mean simple nonintervention by government in the economy?  If so we have plenty of examples of that failing miserably, to the extent that it makes the USSR look like a prosperous alternative.

The US economy has grown the most in times of huge expansions of Government spending and intervention - there are people who say it would have been even bigger without, but strangely sustained growth never manages to correlate with non-intervention or large spending cuts.

I remember 25 years of sustained growth quite recently.

[agricola]

De Selby I don't give a flipping wollop of a dab of spit hitting a leaf if he's doubled or quadrupled Venzuela's wealth it doesn't justify robbery.
You don't get it do you?  I HATE socialists and communists.  They're some of the most dangerous predators on the face of the planet.  In their commie form they've killed more innocent people than any other whacko including Hitler.

You'll probably like this then:

China is to overhaul the sometimes threatening slogans used to enforce its one-child policy, the authorities have announced.

Details of the project were published in the Chinese communist party newspaper, the People's Daily.

State media blamed local officials for coming up with phrases such as, "If you don't get sterilised, your house will be demolished"

They said they would be replaced by friendlier expressions.

But they insisted that the one-child policy itself would not change.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17181951

[De Selby]

I remember 25 years of sustained growth quite recently.

When was that, and what was the federal budget like?

[De Selby]

Tommy, I'm not sure what is your point is anymore - you started about by saying Venezuelans are worse off, now you're saying you don't care if they're twice as rich.   Is this about outcomes for real people or about your emotional attachment to an ideology?

[TommyGunn]

De Selby, stop trying to hyper analyze everything.  I said they're worse off; I don't think you can steal wealth from one segment of society and "spread it around" and make everyone richer.  
There's an old bromide that if you steal from Peter to pay Paul you can count on the support of a lot of Pauls.  The happy Pauls might even provide an illusion of wealth -- for awhile.  
Robbing land from "rich people" to give proceeds to the poor may improve the outcome for ... "real people" just like Capone's soup kitchen helped "real people" and helped their ...."outcomes", but Capone was nonetheless a criminal, and a murderer. 
"Whoever claims the right to redistribute the wealth produced by others is claiming the right to treat human beings as chattel." ~~ Ayn Rand.

If you can find a book called "America's Thirty Year War," by Balint Vazsonyi you may understand something of socialism and communism.  Mr. Vazsonyi grew up in that system before he made it to America.  It'll give you some good insights for sure....

[French G.]

Rank and file Germans were a lot better off too when some charismatic pseudo-socialist lifted them out of the mess that was Weimar. Give Hugo time.

[seeker_two]

Rank and file Germans were a lot better off too when some charismatic pseudo-socialist lifted them out of the mess that was Weimar. Give Hugo time.

You sure know how to comfort a guy, French..... 

[Ron]

DeSelby, from Reagan on through the end of W's second term we experienced significant economic growth despite the profligate spending of government at all levels, especially the Fed.

Before the Obama administration it was more difficult to argue that point as those on the left would point to that spending and claim it was the reason for our economic growth.

Now with Bush&Obama's unprecedented act of spending more money in one bill than any presidents entire term, all to see anemic growth, continued high unemployment and growing dependency on .gov, that argument has been shown to be the lie it is.

Governments cannot spend and tax an economy into economic health. 

[MicroBalrog]

Spending fell after WW2 [and yet the economy grew], as well as during the years of Bush v1.0 and Clinton. It is not important to argue who was responsible, but it did occur.

Economic deregulation occured under Carter, Reagan and Clinton.

...of course, under De Selby's argument, the economy can only be improved by ever-expanding state spending. Wouldn't we eventually get to 100% spending-to-GDP ratio, then?

[SADShooter]

I do believe that's the objective.