Author Topic: Social Conservatives ForTheWin  (Read 35460 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2012, 09:44:34 PM »
If I brought up the fears people expressed about John Kennedy's religion, we would all happily excoriate those people for being bigots and rubes and fear-mongerers.

But fear-mongering about present-day candidates' religion passes for sophisticated, moderate politics.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:14:38 PM by fistful »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2012, 09:47:07 PM »
Well, I guess that depends upon if you consider the Bill of Rights to be part of the COTUS. I agree with you on the Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptists, but SCOTUS has interpreted the First Amendment as the basis for the separation doctrine since 1878.

Then I guess that settles it.  ;/


Here's the problem with Santoram: The founding fathers would not support Santoram's view of what is "essential to our Constitutional Republic." The type of "liberty" that Santoram espouses (as seen in this video, where he states that "God gave us rights and freedom to pursue his will") is one that predates the enlightenment and the ideals that propelled the Revolution and is antithetical to everything the founders fought for. This makes Santoram an ultra-conservative, and one that the majority of the founders would actively loath.

I'm not sure how you got all that out of the vague statements in that speech.
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MechAg94

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2012, 10:15:58 PM »
Why are some of you so irrationally scared of social conservatives?  Judging by your posts in this thread, some of you are imagining and inventing new dictatorial mandates each day that social conservatives supposedly want to inflict.  I have never even heard of some of the stuff you are talking about. 

A person can be social conservative and still agree with libertarian principles.  Social conservative is not the same thing as Theocratic Dictator.  I guess like a lot of political terms, everyone has their own definition and assumes everyone else uses the same one.

Personally, I think if many of the Founding Fathers ran for office in our time, many of you would think they were evil social conservatives. 
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AJ Dual

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2012, 10:27:18 PM »

Personally, I think if many of the Founding Fathers ran for office in our time, many of you would think they were evil social conservatives. 

Yeah.. except when in the slave quarters at night, or living it up as Ambassador to France over in Paris...   >:D
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2012, 12:41:41 AM »
A person can be social conservative and still agree with libertarian principles.

How?

Anyone advocating a particular morality be legislated can not also support libertarian-defined individual liberty (that being, all individuals are free to do as they wish provided it doesn't step on the rights of another.)  These positions are mutually exclusive.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2012, 01:23:33 AM »
How?

Anyone advocating a particular morality be legislated can not also support libertarian-defined individual liberty (that being, all individuals are free to do as they wish provided it doesn't step on the rights of another.)  These positions are mutually exclusive.


Quote
all individuals are free to do as they wish provided it doesn't step on the rights of another.

That is a particular morality you wish to legislate.

A social conservative is a social conservative - one who takes a conservative view of social issues. It does not therefore follow that they want to enforce those things by law.
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gunsmith

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2012, 01:26:07 AM »
Well, I guess that depends upon if you consider the Bill of Rights to be part of the COTUS. I agree with you on the Jefferson letter to the Danbury Baptists, but SCOTUS has interpreted the First Amendment as the basis for the separation doctrine since 1878.

SCOTUS??? I thought you said the founding fathers?? SCOTUS  at one point or other has said many different things, folks are still bitterly clinging to there "collective rights" dogma despite SCOTUS  ruling twice for the RKBA actually spelled out in the founding documents, What historical proof is their that the men who said "unalienable rights endowed by our Creator"  were against prayer in public school or for taxation to pay for abortion?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:39:24 AM by gunsmith »
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2012, 01:38:11 AM »
How?

Anyone advocating a particular morality be legislated can not also support libertarian-defined individual liberty (that being, all individuals are free to do as they wish provided it doesn't step on the rights of another.)  These positions are mutually exclusive.


IDK, I simply don't want tax dollars to go to genocidal racist like planned parenthood  [popcorn] [popcorn]

I'm not going to give any support to gay marriage but I don't actually care what they do/or what they chose to call their relationships.

I do want legislation banning abortions because I'm against killing innocents though, but I was against abortion as a liberal kid - two of the reasons I liked Jimmy Carter in 1976 was his firm anti abortion views     ( he ended fed funding for it ) and his pro legalization of marijuana stance.

Is the good ol peanut farmer a social conservative?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2012, 01:39:54 AM »
Come now, gunsmith. You know very well that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," really means "separation of church;" and "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," is Founder-speak for "and state." Stop lying to yourself.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 08:07:36 AM by fistful »
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2012, 01:56:03 AM »
Come now, gunsmith. You know very well that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," really means "separation of church," and "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," is Founder-speak for "and state." Stop lying to yourself.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :cool: :cool: :cool:

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Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2012, 02:26:03 AM »
Quote
Personally, I think if many of the Founding Fathers ran for office in our time, many of you would think they were evil social conservatives. 

They were wrong about many other things, too.
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2012, 02:26:55 AM »
Hardly.

Like everything else, there are dependent hedonists, and self-supporting hedonists. 

Right now, looking at the tax rolls, and the entitlements, 51% of the electorate is still presumably the self-supporting kind in the productive class. Hedonistic in no way excludes enlightened self interest or pragmatism.

Far more. "Not paying income tax" does not mean "welfare bum".

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BridgeRunner

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2012, 06:30:45 AM »
A social conservative is just that - a social conservative. A person with a traditional view on moral issues. That doesn't mean they want to legislate on those things. The point is, when you alienate them, you get big-govt leftists who are more likely to legislate on social issues anyway.

1) "Traditional views on moral issues" is a quaintly ambiguous phrase that means exactly nothing.   

2) Seems to me someone with "traditional views on moral issues" (if that phrase actually meant anything at all) is a moral conservative.  When those views are applied to others in society, that's pretty much when it becomes social conservativism.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2012, 08:06:55 AM »
1) "Traditional views on moral issues" is a quaintly ambiguous phrase that means exactly nothing.    

"Quaintly ambiguous" - does that have a precise meaning?

I would point out that the meaning is clear enough for our purposes, but it's kind of obvious.
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MechAg94

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2012, 08:16:10 AM »
I guess my point is that I feel I have conservative social views.  I say that in comparing myself to a lot of the loony left who want to encourage all sorts of deviant behavior and have the govt pay for it.  I don't want the govt paying for or encouraging deviant behavior, or really even good behavior.  I have no interest in legislating against that deviant behavior, certainly not at the federal level.  I don't think the Constitution was set up for that. 

I think this definition that some of you take that social conservatives want to dictate your daily decisions and behavior is a very small minority that really doesn't have any support at all.  Banning abortion is about the only "tell you what to do" issue I see out there.  Every other issue is about govt funding of something. 

I can understand being weary of anyone who pushes the "tell you what to do" mentality too much, but I think some of you almost invent the extreme position and than argue it no matter what anyone actually says. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2012, 08:19:30 AM »
How?

Anyone advocating a particular morality be legislated can not also support libertarian-defined individual liberty (that being, all individuals are free to do as they wish provided it doesn't step on the rights of another.)  These positions are mutually exclusive.
No, they are not mutually exclusive.  You have just chosen to define "social conservative" as "anyone advocating a particular morality be legislated".  I don't see it that way.
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Ron

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2012, 09:32:59 AM »
How?

Anyone advocating a particular morality be legislated can not also support libertarian-defined individual liberty (that being, all individuals are free to do as they wish provided it doesn't step on the rights of another.)  These positions are mutually exclusive.

Social conservatives are generally defined by what they refuse to support or pay for these days.

Abortion, they are against it and don't think government should be financing it here or abroad. Do the libertarians and freedom lovers here believe we should be financing abortion with tax dollars?

Gay "marriage", they are against the use of government force to redefine an ancient word and institution, they are against shoehorning same sex couplings into an institution that has centuries of jurisprudence based on it being a union of a man and woman. There is no call to make homosexuality illegal or keeping them from pairing up into long term relationships. In our modern society I personally would not care if their bondings were given some type of legal sanction so that inheritance, possibly insurance and other relationship type rights are protected. A new legal framework that is designed from the outset to reflect the nature of same sex unions.

Do the lovers of freedom and liberty really support the Orwellian usurpation of a word and ancient institution by government fiat? We hereby declare marriage now includes man and man, woman and woman! Accept it or else!  

Once again, it is resistance to the use government force to redefine an ancient word and institution, they are against shoehorning same sex couplings into an institution that has centuries of jurisprudence based on it being a union of a man and woman. Most social conservatives positions have even evolved on the issue so that legal/property/insurance concerns I've mentioned above are addressed. That a marriage does not make though.

Contraception, being tuned into the religious right for the last 20 some years I have never heard anyone seriously suggest we should outlaw contraception. I have heard plenty grumble about government picking up the tab for folks contraception. Do the liberty and freedom lovers here really think it is governments role to dispense birth control?  

Recreational drugs, the war on drugs is bad, this one will require a lot of work to educate folks on. Most are of the mindset drugs bad = make illegal.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 09:55:47 AM by Ron »
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2012, 10:22:45 AM »
Contraception, being tuned into the religious right for the last 20 some years I have never heard anyone seriously suggest we should outlaw contraception. I have heard plenty grumble about government picking up the tab for folks contraception. Do the liberty and freedom lovers here really think it is governments role to dispense birth control?  

I would give far more credence to the argument that government should not dispense/fund birth control if the same argument was made for not providing any prescribed drugs via Medicare, Medicaid, the VA or any other government program.  Either the government funds all prescribed drugs via established programs on the basis of need or none. 

But between the financial impact to Big Pharma, and the conservatives on Medicare who say you can pry their low-cost beta blockers and statins from their cold dead hands, I don't really see that happening. 
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Ron

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2012, 10:25:48 AM »
I would give far more credence to the argument that government should not dispense/fund birth control if the same argument was made for not providing any prescribed drugs via Medicare, Medicaid, the VA or any other government program.  Either the government funds all prescribed drugs via established programs on the basis of need or none.  

But between the financial impact to Big Pharma, and the conservatives on Medicare who say you can pry their low-cost beta blockers and statins from their cold dead hands, I don't really see that happening.  

Around here (APS) it would fly, but you are correct, some "entitlements" are seemingly untouchable.

That doesn't make a very convincing argument for expanding the role of government though. It is the argument children make, he gets one why can't I get something too!! wah!!!!
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #94 on: February 23, 2012, 12:00:54 PM »
I would give far more credence to the argument that government should not dispense/fund birth control if the same argument was made for not providing any prescribed drugs via Medicare, Medicaid, the VA or any other government program.  Either the government funds all prescribed drugs via established programs on the basis of need or none. 

But between the financial impact to Big Pharma, and the conservatives on Medicare who say you can pry their low-cost beta blockers and statins from their cold dead hands, I don't really see that happening. 

The reason for that perceived inconsistency is that birth control is only necessary if one chooses to be sexually active.* It's much easier to make the argument that government should not subsidize an elective, but if you say that some poor person should do without diabetes meds, suddenly far fewer people agree with you.

The wrinkle with birth control is that some forms of birth control are, or are perceived as, abortifacients. So while there will be no push to eliminate birth control as birth control, without a major cultural shift, there is at least some significant chance that some may try to have certain drugs proscribed or at least more tightly regulated.

An amusing side to this is how out-of-date some of the arguments are. People still talk about American men as if we were 19th-century farmer patriarchs, demanding that our wives give us a good crop before we finally allow them to die in childbirth, so we can find a younger model and repeat the process. Obviously, it doesn't work that way any more.

*Obviously some sexual activity is not consensual, but that usually leads us back to the abortifacient argument.
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erictank

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #95 on: February 24, 2012, 01:11:12 AM »
Social conservatives are generally defined by what they refuse to support or pay for these days.

Abortion, they are against it and don't think government should be financing it here or abroad. Do the libertarians and freedom lovers here believe we should be financing abortion with tax dollars?

Nope. It should be neither outlawed nor subsidized. "Cheap, widely available, and rarely used," to paraphrase something I can't remember the actual source for.

Note - Virginia's newly-proposed anti-abortion law requiring the medically-performed rape of women for daring to seek an early-term abortion is completely unconscionable. Laws like this do "social conservatives" no favors, in the public's eyes. :facepalm:

Gay "marriage", they are against the use of government force to redefine an ancient word and institution, they are against shoehorning same sex couplings into an institution that has centuries of jurisprudence based on it being a union of a man and woman. There is no call to make homosexuality illegal or keeping them from pairing up into long term relationships. In our modern society I personally would not care if their bondings were given some type of legal sanction so that inheritance, possibly insurance and other relationship type rights are protected. A new legal framework that is designed from the outset to reflect the nature of same sex unions.

Do the lovers of freedom and liberty really support the Orwellian usurpation of a word and ancient institution by government fiat? We hereby declare marriage now includes man and man, woman and woman! Accept it or else!  

Once again, it is resistance to the use government force to redefine an ancient word and institution, they are against shoehorning same sex couplings into an institution that has centuries of jurisprudence based on it being a union of a man and woman. Most social conservatives positions have even evolved on the issue so that legal/property/insurance concerns I've mentioned above are addressed. That a marriage does not make though.

Words do tend to evolve, in our language. What is your REAL objection to calling same sex marriages, marriages?  Why does it MATTER?

Does Joe's marriage to Mark, or Cathy's to Karen, in *ANY* way damage your marriage to your wife?  Doesn't damage mine in the SLIGHTEST.  Let gay people suffer just like the straights! :lol:

You want my REAL opinion, as a libertarian, on the issue?  Since the government -at *ANY* level - has no legitimate business interfering in or subsidizing *ANY* marriage, it ought to get out of straight marriages, leave them as moral and/or business contracts between two (or more) freely-consenting people, and add religious bindings to that if those individuals so desire.  That's the way it OUGHT to be. But if it's going to shoehorn itself into straight marriages, it's got no business NOT extending the same coverage and subsidizing to gay marriages. Equal treatment under the law, and all that. Think we've got a Constitutional Amendment to that effect, somewhere...

Contraception, being tuned into the religious right for the last 20 some years I have never heard anyone seriously suggest we should outlaw contraception. I have heard plenty grumble about government picking up the tab for folks contraception. Do the liberty and freedom lovers here really think it is governments role to dispense birth control?  

Neither dispense nor stand in the way of. If those in government have some religious-based (or other) moral objection to implementation and use of birth control, up to and including "morning after" pills, they can either sit on their objections or get out of government and protest like any other civilian.

(Looking hard at Santorum as I say that...)

Recreational drugs, the war on drugs is bad, this one will require a lot of work to educate folks on. Most are of the mindset drugs bad = make illegal.

Yup - sure will require a lot of work, in large part because so many are so very vocal about their mistaken belief, or outright lies, that those agitating for legalization are one and all stoner-wannabes who just want to lounge around and get high 24/7/365 at someone else's expense. Heaven forbid that many of us actually believe that it is the sole province of each individual to decide what he or she wants to put into his or her body (subject to freely-given informed consent, of course), and to be held fully responsible for the consequences of his or her actions while under the influence. Crash your car into a KFC because you were too stoned to see straight? Guess you're on the hook for some pretty expensive repairs and injury/death claims, don't come crying to me, you negligent bastard.  Same thought process applies to alcohol, naturally.

I am convinced that if a nickel's worth of plant matter didn't cost a hundred bucks to purchase, and was available on the CVS shelf next to the Dayquil (or in whatever section might be more appropriate; BTW, credit for phrasing to Vin Suprynowicz), our "drug problems" here in this country would be a ROUNDING ERROR compared to the figures we've got going on thanks to the War On Some Drugs, and the current drug cartels would be powerless - indeed, would be out of freaking business.  We MADE them into the global powers they are today, thanks to the War On Some Drugs. Guess we didn't learn a freaking thing from Prohibition I, we had to go and double down and try again. :facepalm:

ETA:
The reason for that perceived inconsistency is that birth control is only necessary if one chooses to be sexually active.* It's much easier to make the argument that government should not subsidize an elective, but if you say that some poor person should do without diabetes meds, suddenly far fewer people agree with you.

Given the very real physical and psychological health benefits of (healthy consensual) sexual activity, I would not actually regard it as quite so "elective" myself. YMM, perhaps, V. Why should we NOT make sex safer, more free of hazard and expense, given the capacity to do so? That's what humans do - we find ways to do new things, and new ways to do those things better. There's nothing wrong with having sex, at least consensually - why should we not make a healthy, natural activity better and more accessible?

Or do rich people simply deserve to be able to have more sex than poor people? ;/  Neither my wife nor I want more kids than the two she already had - should we just not have sex, when humanity KNOWS how to deal with that particular issue?

Note that while it's a relatively-new development over the past several years, my insurance plans at my previous and current jobs cover ED drugs in the same manner as, say, blood-pressure or diabetes meds.

The wrinkle with birth control is that some forms of birth control are, or are perceived as, abortifacients. So while there will be no push to eliminate birth control as birth control, without a major cultural shift, there is at least some significant chance that some may try to have certain drugs proscribed or at least more tightly regulated.

It's all about where you choose to draw the line - and what makes where you draw it that much more "real" or valid than where, say, I do, or where the head of Planned Parenthood does?

An amusing side to this is how out-of-date some of the arguments are. People still talk about American men as if we were 19th-century farmer patriarchs, demanding that our wives give us a good crop before we finally allow them to die in childbirth, so we can find a younger model and repeat the process. Obviously, it doesn't work that way any more.

*Obviously some sexual activity is not consensual, but that usually leads us back to the abortifacient argument.

Lotta attitudes remain mired in the dark ages, so to speak.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 01:24:12 AM by erictank »

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #96 on: February 24, 2012, 01:30:37 AM »
birth control is only necessary if one chooses to be sexually active.*

"The Pill" is quite commonly used for other medical reasons besides contraception. 
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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #97 on: February 24, 2012, 01:44:56 AM »
Quote
Note that while it's a relatively-new development over the past several years, my insurance plans at my previous and current jobs cover ED drugs in the same manner as, say, blood-pressure or diabetes meds.

Perhaps the Catholic church should look into covering ED drugs only for men requiring it for procreative sexual relations. I'm sure they could save some money that way.  ;)

Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it

erictank

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #98 on: February 24, 2012, 01:45:42 AM »
Perhaps the Catholic church should look into covering ED drugs only for men requiring it for procreative sexual relations. I'm sure they could save some money that way.  ;)

 :laugh:

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Re: Social Conservatives ForTheWin
« Reply #99 on: February 24, 2012, 07:37:21 AM »
Note - Virginia's newly-proposed anti-abortion law requiring the medically-performed rape of women for daring to seek an early-term abortion is completely unconscionable. Laws like this do "social conservatives" no favors, in the public's eyes. :facepalm:

Only in the eyes of the sand-poundingly ignorant and/or aggressively dishonest.

See, even Planned Parenthood performs an ultrasound in the vast majority of abortions it provides.  Because it is the standard practice since ultrasound has become ubiquitous.

For your risible contention of "medically-performed rape" to remain true, Planned Parenthood, when it performs an ultrasound prior to performing an abortion, also is raping its clients.

The problem the pro-abortion advocates have with ultrasound is not that it occurs (since that already happens).  The problem they have is if the mother sees(1) the reality of the child growing in them, a good number have a change of heart and do not kill their child.  Fewer abortions make hedonists, eugenicists, and malevolent misanthropes unhappy and lose profits for abortionists & Planned Parenthood.



(1)Because the only delta between these such laws and standard practice at abortion clinics is that the law makes the abortionist give the opportunity to the mother to view the ultrasound (the ultrasound that was to occur with or without the law).  The mother does not have to see it if they are unwiling to look, but the abortionists are required to provide that medical information (ultrasound results) to them.


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roo_ster

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