Author Topic: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically  (Read 13861 times)

Balog

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http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/02/22/medethics-2011-100411.abstract

This is the peer reviewed state of ethics these days. Here's the abstract...

Quote
Abstract

Abortion is largely accepted even for reasons that do not have anything to do with the fetus' health. By showing that (1) both fetuses and newborns do not have the same moral status as actual persons, (2) the fact that both are potential persons is morally irrelevant and (3) adoption is not always in the best interest of actual people, the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.


Remember how all us pro-life folks have been saying cultural acceptance of abortion will lead to euthanasia and infanticide?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:51:10 AM by Balog »
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 11:46:30 AM »
What...

The....

[censored]??????
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TommyGunn

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2012, 11:53:10 AM »
Der viert Reich hat begonnen!!!
 

And our morality is being .... "adjusted" to accept the consequences!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2012, 12:00:41 PM »
Gee, this won't turn political.
 ;/
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Jamie B

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 12:06:48 PM »
Gee, this won't turn political.
 ;/
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longeyes

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2012, 12:19:37 PM »
Give them credit for brutal candor.  Clarity is best.
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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2012, 12:24:00 PM »
No kidding - Godwin's law rears it's head early.....
HEY!  I didn't actually mention any names.     [tinfoil] [popcorn]
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Fly320s

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2012, 12:35:16 PM »
Der viert Reich hat begonnen!!!

He said, "my red hat is missing!"  See, no mention of politics at all.
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HankB

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 12:36:01 PM »
Quote
. . . the authors argue that what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled.

If this is accepted, it's only a matter of time until the definition of "newborn" is expanded . . . one year, five years, fifty years . . . whatever is convenient for these ethicists. Or the ones funding them.

We'll eventually include "pre-expiration early termination" to justify killing old folks who are determined by peer-reviewed ethicists to be useless and burdensome . . .  and like killing newborns, disability will not be the qualifier. (No more Social Security or Medicare funding problems.)

And with recycling all the rage . . . Solyent Green, anyone? 
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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 12:48:59 PM »
In before the lock.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 12:51:15 PM »
He said, "my red hat is missing!"  See, no mention of politics at all.
:facepalm:  You obviously don't speak Naziish.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2012, 02:10:10 PM »
Give them credit for brutal candor.  Clarity is best.

Agreed.

And with recycling all the rage . . . Solyent Green, anyone? 

No, no.  Soylent Pink and Soylent Blue.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 05:29:56 PM »
Remember how all us pro-life folks have been saying cultural acceptance of abortion will lead to euthanasia and infanticide?

No, I don't.

And I don't see how any debate on the "personhood" of an unborn fetus could possibly carry over to a live infant, post delivery.
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agricola

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2012, 06:36:16 PM »
At the risk of playing devils advocate, and perhaps the authors didnt mean quite this, but there is definately an ethical point here  - and the people who have to take a look at themselves as a result of that point being made are those on the pro-choice side of the argument. 

After all, most of the reasons cited as to why women have a right to choose are not fundamentally affected by whether the child is a fetus or a newborn baby; there is very little actual evidence (in terms of understanding, mental ability, evidence of reasoning etc) that could be used to ethically separate a child that it is legal to kill from one that isnt.  Why is it that most Western countries allow one child to be killed and not another?
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Balog

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2012, 07:00:43 PM »
Hawkmoon: what is the difference between a child still in the womb, and one who was delivered 5 seconds ago? As Mike Irwin has pointed out very well here before, birth is an entirely arbitrary line used because it is clear and convenient.
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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2012, 07:06:23 PM »
 I have had this discussion with a liberal I worked with.
He believed that infanticide was as important a choice as was abortion.
He believed it was OK for a parent to choose to terminate the child up until the child had a personality.

He also seriously believed that Conservative hated the environment.

BTW he was an A student in college at the time.
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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2012, 07:11:45 PM »
Margret Sangar, founder of planned parenthood said infanticide was as important a choice as abortion in the book "Women And The New Race" - btw this new pure race she had planned for America didn't include people like Obama.
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2012, 07:31:42 PM »
Hawkmoon: what is the difference between a child still in the womb, and one who was delivered 5 seconds ago? As Mike Irwin has pointed out very well here before, birth is an entirely arbitrary line used because it is clear and convenient.

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=27880.0
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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mtnbkr

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2012, 07:42:35 PM »
Margret Sangar, founder of planned parenthood said infanticide was as important a choice as abortion in the book "Women And The New Race" - btw this new pure race she had planned for America didn't include people like Obama.

You frequently claim this of her, but I'm skeptical because I can't find any reputable sources attributing that to her.  I did find cites where she said infanticide was used by the poorer classes because they didn't have other means of birth control available to them.  Her quote referred to the practice (of infanticide) as barbaric:

Quote
But during all the long years this matter has been discussed, advocated, refuted, the people themselves—poor people especially—were blindly, desperately practicing family limitation, just as they are practicing it today. To them birth control does not mean what it does to us. To them it has meant the most barbaric methods. It has meant the killing of babies—infanticide,—abortions,—in one crude way or another.

    My Fight for Birth Control, 1931, page 133.

Just a few minutes googling tells me she was more interested in the prevention of pregnancy via contraception than abortion or infanticide.

Chris

Ned Hamford

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2012, 09:01:46 PM »
Things get really fun with the response.

http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/02/28/liberals-are-disgusting-in-defence-of-the-publication-of-after-birth-abortion/

My original thought was 'folks playing devil's advocate?' But nope...  The paper wasn't advocating killing babies for sake of killing babies, it just wanted to discuss how convenient it would be for the mother and family who don't want that healthy baby.   [barf]

"The novel contribution of this paper is not an argument in favour of infanticide – the paper repeats the arguments made famous by Tooley and Singer – but rather their application in consideration of maternal and family interests. The paper also draws attention to the fact that infanticide is practised in the Netherlands."

If you make something that was illegal legal you can claim crime is reduced, but that doesn't mean there was any actual benefit in the act. 
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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 09:03:34 PM »
If an infant is not a person at birth, is it a person at three months old?....six months old?....a year old?.....ten years old?.....

Once you start pushing the line, it gets easier to push it farther....
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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #21 on: February 29, 2012, 09:22:49 PM »
You frequently claim this of her, but I'm skeptical because I can't find any reputable sources attributing that to her.  I did find cites where she said infanticide was used by the poorer classes because they didn't have other means of birth control available to them.  Her quote referred to the practice (of infanticide) as barbaric:

Just a few minutes googling tells me she was more interested in the prevention of pregnancy via contraception than abortion or infanticide.

Chris

mtnbkr:

This one was pretty easy to find:
Many, perhaps, will think it idle to go farther in demonstrating the
immorality of large families, but since there is still an abundance of
proof at hand, it may be offered for the sake of those who find
difficulty in adjusting old-fashioned ideas to the facts. The most
merciful thing that the large family does to one of its infant members
is to kill it.

OH, here's anohter one:
No matter how much they desire children, no man and woman
have a right to bring into the world those who are to suffer from
mental or physical affliction.
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agricola

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2012, 09:27:38 PM »
If an infant is not a person at birth, is it a person at three months old?....six months old?....a year old?.....ten years old?.....

Once you start pushing the line, it gets easier to push it farther....

Which is why pro-life people should really send messages of thanks to Giubilini and Minerva for coming up with (admittedly accidentally) one of the greatest pro-life arguments of recent times. 
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red headed stranger

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2012, 09:39:18 PM »
Which is why pro-life people should really send messages of thanks to Giubilini and Minerva for coming up with (admittedly accidentally) one of the greatest pro-life arguments of recent times. 

Indeed.  That paper reads a bit like "A Modest Proposal." 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Medical ethicists: newborns are not actual people, can be killed ethically
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2012, 09:44:28 PM »
Which is why pro-life people should really send messages of thanks to Giubilini and Minerva for coming up with (admittedly accidentally) one of the greatest pro-life arguments of recent times. 

I'm glad they're bringing it back up, but they didn't originate it. As was noted in one of the earlier posts, Peter Singer brought this up a long time ago. I believe his cut-off point was something on the order of 1 to 2 years. Most people who take up this issue, from the anti-abortion side, have heard about that.
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