stand your ground or is it neighborhood watch death squad?

[AmbulanceDriver]

Frickin' A, Selby.  I've seriously had it with you bloviating and opining as if you're judge and jury for Zimmerman.  WE DON'T [CENSORED] KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.  Thank God I don't have you for a lawyer, I'd be sent to the electric chair for a traffic ticket!

WHAT LAW DID HE OBVIOUSLY BREAK?

Seriously.  Name it.  Felony following?   Aggravated chasing?  Following with intention to inquire???  WHAT EXACTLY did he do that makes it so he OBVIOUSLY broke the law, oh great and all knowing De Selby?

Provide one bit of actual evidence that he broke the law, and I'll apologize right here...  But I have a feeling that you won't be able to find one, because, oh wait, NONE OF THE FACTS OF THE CASE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN PUBLICLY RELEASED!  Yes, some of the 911 tapes have been released.  But to my knowledge, not a single one of them indicates that Zimmerman actually broke the law. All we have is inference and assumption based on some of the 911 tapes and very limited (and frankly biased) reporting in the media.  

ETA:  Mods, sorry if I'm attacking De Selby here, but in my opinion he's gotten to be as bad as Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, condemning the man when we simply don't know what happened.  

[Ron]

- photo confirmed NOT Trayvon Martin -

[AmbulanceDriver]

Ron, the lower photo of Trayvon Martin is apparently not the Trayvon Martin that was shot by Zimmerman.  Michele Malkin has pulled it from her site with an apology for the mistake and to the Martin family.

[red headed stranger]

This is also an example of confirmation bias on some people's part, as the picture of the guy flipping off the camera is not the Tayvon Martin in this case.  

[TommyGunn]

......Of course, when he's convicted, we'll all just claim it was a railroading to dismiss the fact that he obviously broke the law.

Let's not count the chickens before they're hatched DeSelby.  If Zimmerman is tried and found guilty of a reasonable charge (by which I mean 1st degree murder would be a gross overcharge) then I don't think most people will claim it's railroading.

I still think this is a prime example of a case in which an American court has a better than average chance of fumbling in the endzone though......

[De Selby]

What law did he break?  Try this one:  http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

(2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Chasing people while armed for no reason?  Yeah, Shouldn't be too hard to see how that's a depraved mind.

There's this if you're more favorable to people running after you while armed during your evening strolls: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.07.html

(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

I don't see anyone agreeing that chasing trayvon was something reasonable under the circumstances - knowing that it could lead to armed confrontation, he did it anyway.  If the prosecutor can't make the case for that being culpable negligence under the circumstances, I'd be shocked.

[T.O.M.]

Hey guys, sorry for the delayin responding.  Workand lawn mmowing got in the way.  To answer a couple of questions... I was creating hypotheticals earlier based on the information I had. Please don't jump me if that info is wrong. Regrettably, muchof it came from the talking heads on TV.  Best info I have which isn't saying much.
One thing I take from all of this, and we all should...don't be like Zimmerman.  He was wrong to leave his car. He was wrong to use a racial slur (if he reaaly did) while on the phone with 911.   He was wrong to follow the kidon foot.  He put himself in a position where he needed to use his weapon, and he had no reason at all to put himself in that position.  Charged or not, convicted or not, bznkrupted or not, he madebad choices that put him in this posiition.
May we all make better choices.

[lupinus]

Police now saying the evidence is consistent with Zimmerman's version of events-

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/27/police-zimmerman-story-is-consistent-with-evidence-in-trayvon-martin-shooting/

Frankly at this point, with what little we know, I think Zimmerman's an idiot. A big freaking idiot. I think he did a lot wrong in this case.

He shouldn't have followed the kid. He should have called the cops and left it at that. But that said, being an idiot doesn't make you a murderer. Following someone suspicious in your neighborhood, while a might stupid in this case, doesn't make you a murderer if they jump you.

Idiot? Yes, big yes. Murderer? Not looking like it and if it was clear cut enough I think he'd already be in cuffs. It's a big if and of course based solely on the evidence they actually have, but if anything they might be able to go for manslaughter. But I'm leaning towards a big if.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Sorry De Selby,  but following someone,  even chasing someone,  whether you are armed or not, is not "an act imminently dangerous to another."

Furthermore, you're twisting the law around to try to fit your preconceived notions.  For that law to apply,  the act that causes the unlawful killing must be the imminently dangerous act.  So if Martin had keeled over and died from being chased, then yes,  that law would apply.  And that law specifically states "the unlawful killing." Killing someone in self defense is not an unlawful killing.

Now let's look at the second statute you quoted....

The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Let's walk through that, shall we?  Hrm... "Without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776"....   Wait.  Would self defense be lawful justification???  Oh my, it looks like chapter 776 is exactly that, Justifiable Use of Force!   Hrm.  Let's see what all is in there, shall we???  Oh lookie...   776.012 - Use of force in defense of person.  776.032 - Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.

Oh, here's a good one....

776.041 - Use of force by aggressor.  Shall we see what Florida has to say about this???  Even if Zimmerman was the "aggressor"?

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Ok.   #1 doesn't apply.  Zimmerman was not attempting to commit, committing or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony.  Strike 1.

#2 - "Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself."  -  Hmm.. could it be...  Maybe *that's* the law you were thinking he broke....  But wait.  there's more to be read-

"UNLESS" (my, that's an important word in this case)

"(a) - such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm" yeah, getting punched to the ground and then having your head slammed into the cement sidewalk would fit that definition "and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;"  Whoopsie.  Zimmerman was under Martin, having his head pounded into the cement.  I don't see any reasonable means to escape that danger....  Strike 2.

"or (b) - In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force."  Let's see. Zimmerman stopped following/chasing Martin.  He's walking back to his car.  Yup.  Withdrew from physical contact...  Oh wait.  THERE HADN'T EVEN BEEN ANY PHYSICAL CONTACT YET!   According to his statement to police, after he started walking back to his car, this exchange occurred:

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

from http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Wait, what's this? "Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose" oh no!  "and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force."    Strike 3, and you're out!

Oh, but guess what, I'm not done yet!  "and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide"

Gee, I wonder what fits the definition of excusable homicide???   Oh, that's right, SELF DEFENSE!


Guess again, Counselor.

[Ned Hamford]

 

I have had fun conveying facts to some friends off in England.  The versions they get are even more distorted than our own papers.  Their own anti gun establishment is really quite keen on playing up the wild west america racist stereotypes. 

[Jamie B]

Easy, Ambulance Driver. Revenge, like crow, is a dish best served cold! 

You are wasting your breath on deaf ears with that one.

I find his words to be very educational, though.

If the time ever arises that I need a lawyer, I know exactly what not to look for.....

Any self-inflating gasbag will be quickly removed from the list.....

[RoadKingLarry]

It's only been about a month since the shooting. One of Oklahoma's first SYG shootings took over 3 months before the Tulsa DA charged the shooter.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070928_1__Areti32253
That story was also tried in the media and Gumm was vilified in the press until the POS DA finally charged him.
He eventually ended with a plea bargain that kept him out of jail after the tile crawlers and the system bled him dry. It didn't make the big time because neither party was a member of an oppressed social class.

What gets me about this whole Florida mess is that essentially it is a local issue that is being blown all the hell out of proportion by the race pimps and anti-gun left. The backlash from this is going to be detrimental to the 2A and the effects are going to be long lasting.

Never let a crisis go to waste.

[erictank]

This.  I'm actually swinging around on my view on it as more has come out in the shuffle.

I'm still not a fan of Zimmerman's actions.  He put himself in the situation by pursuing Martin.  Martin had not commited any crime that Zimmerman had witnessed. 
In the end, its highly possible that Zimmerman's account is accurate.  But while he may have a very shaky legal high ground, I still don't believe he has the moral high ground in this shooting.


The fix, however, is in.  The race pimps and the DOJ will make sure he is either convicted of a hate crime, sued penniless in civil court, or if the NBP has their way....Killed.  
Justice will not be served, only mob rule.

Gotta agree - the initial info reported (what little there was) looked VERY bad for Zimmerman, IMO. As more came out, it looked worse for Martin than Zimmerman. Not that Zimmerman's position improved much, mind. If he'd just stayed in the car, I doubt any of this would ever have happened. But Martin is... something less than the "angel" initially portrayed by family and supporters, and the recently-released facts of the encounter and events leading up to the shooting resemble Zimmerman's account far more than those related by Martin's supporters.

I wanted more info to decide what was going on, and now that I've gotten it, it looks a lot less like Zimmerman was out to murder a black teenager out of racism than initially reported. He was still freaking stupid for starting the whole chain of events, and I'd say odds are at least 50/50 that he'll hang for it (metaphorically, or perhaps literally if he's really unlucky).

[Ron]

I said it earlier, looks like a couple of wannabee tough guys got a chance to meet each other. Unfortunately one of them was carrying a gun.

If he gets convicted of manslaughter or a lesser degree of murder I hope it is made clear the circumstances didn't meet the standard of "stand your ground".

[geronimotwo]

i wonder if this will result in changing how 911 operators handle this type of call?  if she had insisted that zimmerman wait by the mailboxes (or other specified location) it would have terminated his pursuit of martin.

[MechAg94]

i wonder if this will result in changing how 911 operators handle this type of call?  if she had insisted that zimmerman wait by the mailboxes (or other specified location) it would have terminated his pursuit of martin.

Why would that have mattered when 911 operators have no authority? 

Stay in the card or follow on foot, keeping his distance would have been good if possible. 

[Jamie B]

If you want to fix 911, put a 2 way bullshiite filter on the line.

[Fitz]

What i've learned from this is:

If one moron kills another moron while both morons are doing moronic things, it's only a "problem" in america if the dead one is black.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

much truth!! ^^^

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

where as this is meh

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station

and notice how this outlet doesn't mention he was lit up for being a "white boy"   curious that
i'm waiting for slimfast al and the reverend pay to play to fly in and do their magic

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

or for deselby to set the record straight.  gonna make a samich while i wait

[Chester32141]

or for deselby to set the record straight.  gonna make a samich while i wait

Gonna be a hell of a sammich  

And I'm waiting for Obama to come out and say that if he had a son he would look just like the perpetrators ... 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

more reality that fails to conform with deslby's imagination

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=23e_1332772669

[AmbulanceDriver]

And just in case I didn't make myself clear, I DO NOT think that Zimmerman was prudent in getting out of his car.  Or following Martin. 

But you know what, I can actually understand why he did it.

Let's see.  You're on the neighborhood watch and you happen to be driving down the road when you see someone who you don't recognize as living in the neighborhood.  Not only that, but they are walking in an area of your neighborhood that has had repeated break-ins. 

How many of us wouldn't at least roll down the window and ask, hey, my name is AmbulanceDriver, and I'm part of the neighborhood watch around here...  We've had a lot of break ins in the area, and I didn't recognize you as living here....  Mind telling me where you live, or who you're staying with?  (Keeping in mind this is a GATED community, so not a lot of just random foot traffic.)

And if he kept walking away as we were following behind him, how many of us wouldn't call 911? 

And if he took off on foot in between houses, etc...How many of us wouldn't try to at least keep an eye on him?  And maybe get out of the car to try to see where he went?

How many of us would maybe go walking up to where he disappeared, trying to see if we can figure out where he went?



Hindsight is always 20/20.  Knowing what the end result of this chain of events was, of course we wouldn't get out of the car, we wouldn't go following him, yadayadayada. 

But we don't have the gift of foreseeing the future.  We make decisions based on the information we have at hand at the moment we have to make the decision.  I can absolutely guarantee you that if Zimmerman thought following Martin would end up where we are right now, he would have sat in his car in one spot and just been a good witness...

But sadly, he didn't and couldn't know what the chain of events would be.

And so now, Martin is buried, his family is out for "justice".  Zimmerman is hiding from the angry mob that has now formed....

And the rest of us wait, and worry, and wonder what would ever happen if we are ever forced to defend ourselves, and our attacker has different colored skin than we do. 

Do we need to worry about the full weight of the United States Gov't coming down on us trying to find some way to pin us down?  Do we need to worry about Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson calling for our arrest?  Do we need to worry that our home may be attacked, or even destroyed, by an angry mob?  Do we need to worry that we may be hunted down by the New Black Panther party, with a "bounty" placed on our heads, and "wanted dead or alive" posters plastered up everywhere?

I posted a long rant on FB about this.

Ultimately, we need Justice.

Not Justice for Martin.  Not Justice for Zimmerman.  Simply Justice.  The law must look on the facts of the case with impartiality as to what race the alleged victim and the alleged attacker are.

[AmbulanceDriver]

i wonder if this will result in changing how 911 operators handle this type of call?  if she had insisted that zimmerman wait by the mailboxes (or other specified location) it would have terminated his pursuit of martin.

Our 911 center has a policy that if the caller is following the suspect, they warn the caller that they either need to stop following and wait for police, or they are going to disconnect the call.  

Most people stop following.  A few get hung up on and then call back.  

The risk in this policy is that what if something bad happens to the caller after the dispatcher hangs up on them?

But no, 911 dispatchers are not law enforcement (in most cases).  Their instructions carry no weight of law behind them.