Author Topic: oragins of Wicca?  (Read 2696 times)

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
oragins of Wicca?
« on: June 01, 2006, 06:37:55 AM »
Can anyone beat this as athumbnail sketch of the origans of Wicca as practiced today?

"Origins

The history of Wicca is a much debated topic. Gardner claimed that the religion was a survival of matriarchal religions of pre-historic Europe (see Völva), taught to him by a woman named Dorothy Clutterbuck. Many believe he invented it himself, following the thesis of Dr. Margaret Murray and sources such as Aradia: Gospel of the Witches by Charles Godfrey Leland, and the practices of Freemasonry and ceremonial magic; and while Clutterbuck certainly existed, historian Ronald Hutton concluded that she is unlikely to have been involved in Gardner's Craft activities. While the ritual format of Wicca is undeniably styled after late Victorian era occultism, the spiritual content is inspired by older Pagan faiths, with Buddhist and Hindu influences. Whether any historical connection to Pagan religion exists, the aspiration to emulate Pagan religion (as it was understood at the time) certainly does.

Gardner probably had access to few, if any, traditional Pagan rites. The prevailing theory is that most of his rites were the result of his adapting the works of Aleister Crowley. There is very little in the Wiccan rites that cannot be shown to have come from earlier extant sources. The original material is not cohesive and mostly takes the form of substitutions or expansions within unoriginal material, such as embellishment of Crowley lines.

Philip Heselton, writing in Wiccan Roots and later in Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration, argues that Gardner was not the author of the Wiccan rituals but received them in good faith from an unknown source. He notes that all the Crowley material that is found in the Wiccan rituals can be found in a single book, The Equinox vol 3 no. 1 or Blue Equinox. Gardner is not known to have owned or had access to a copy of this book.The idea of primitive matriarchal religions, deriving ultimately from studies by Johann Jakob Bachofen, was popular in Gardner's day, both among academics (e.g., Erich Neumann, Margaret Murray) and amateurs such as Robert Graves.

Later academics (e.g. Carl Jung and Marija Gimbutas) continued research in this area, and later still Joseph Campbell, Ashley Montagu and others highly esteemed Gimbutas's work on the matrifocal cultures of Old Europe. Both matrifocal interpretation of the archaeological record, and the foundations of criticism of such work, continue to be matters of academic debate. Some academics carry on research in this area (consider the 2003 World Congress on Matriarchal Studies). Critics argue that matriarchal societies never actually existed, and are an invention of researchers such as Margaret Murray. "
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

m1911owner

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2006, 08:16:34 AM »
So, the ultimate Feminist religion was cooked up by a couple of White Anglo-Saxon Males?!!  The irony is delicious!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,492
  • My prepositions are on/in
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2006, 08:54:32 AM »
Quote from: m1911owner
So, the ultimate Feminist religion was cooked up by a couple of White Anglo-Saxon Males?!!  The irony is delicious!
I don't know if Rich is right, but it's hard to beat the irony that the founder of the Nation of Islam was not Black, or that Mohammed was described in the Haddith as a "white" man who owned black slaves (or so I am told - let me know if you have any haddith you want to send me).  Or try on this irony: Mohammed Ali was originally named for Cassius Clay of Kentucky, who sacrificed his political career and almost lost his life for his abolitionist views.  So Ali, in a gesture of Black pride, changed his name from that of an abolitionist to that of a man who owned black slaves and many of whose followers have maintained a massive slave trade for centuries.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2006, 09:51:53 AM »
Quote from: m1911owner
So, the ultimate Feminist religion was cooked up by a couple of White Anglo-Saxon Males?!!  The irony is delicious!
You're right - I hadn't thought of THAT aspect - I was approaching it more from being one of Crowley's attempts to supplant/destroy Christianity, but now that you mention it, it cracks me up....   Smiley
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,567
  • I Am Inimical
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2006, 10:09:56 AM »
"I don't know if Rich is right, but it's hard to beat the irony that the founder of the Nation of Islam was not Black, or that Mohammed was described in the Haddith as a "white" man who owned black slaves..."

History is full of those fun little dichotomies...
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

Strings

  • Guest
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2006, 01:18:08 PM »
Rich... your tinfoil is getting too tight again.

>I was approaching it more from being one of Crowley's attempts to supplant/destroy Christianity<

Wicca is NOT an attempt to "destroy Christianity". The whole idea is absurd...

 As far as Crowley's influence on Wicca (or, more to the point, Gardner), I'd (again) liken it to the Bible's influence on Tolkien: he had access too it, and oncorporated some of the ideas into his own work...

 Might I suggest you get over thinking "we're out to get you"?

m1911owner

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 307
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2006, 01:23:01 PM »
Hunter Rose, can you point out some sources that were in print before Crowley was born?  That would end this discussion once and for all.

Strings

  • Guest
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2006, 01:50:14 PM »
That, i can't do. And I'm not saying that Crowley had no influence, just that Rich's "Crowley created Wicca to destroy Christianity" is black helicopter talk...

 most Thelemic (that's the name of the path followers of Crowley use: Thelema) folks I've mentioned the whole idea to have just laughed. While AC was undoubtedly one of the influences Gardner was drawing on, there were a plethora of others: archeology, Norse and Greek myth, even Christianity...

Guest

  • Guest
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2006, 05:23:30 PM »
Source?

Preacherman

  • Senior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 776
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2006, 05:34:27 PM »
Let's be clear, folks:  Wicca as it is practised today has little or nothing to do with ancient religions.  The ancient beliefs died out centuries, even millennia, ago - little or nothing is known about them except what has come down to us in folk-tales, archaeological excavations, etc.  Certainly the "inner workings" of these religions, including their beliefs and religious practices, are almost completely unknown.

Aleister Crowley made up virtually all of his work from whole cloth, and has been thoroughly discredited by most scholars who understand historical investigation and analysis.  Much the same can be said of Gardner and the other "authors" of modern Wiccan practice.  As for those who claim "descent from the Druids" and such things - the Druids have been largely extinct for so long that they may as well claim descent from Atlantean priestesses.  It's a convenient label, but has nothing to do with the truth.

That said, Wiccans are free to believe and practice their religion in any way they please - this is a fundamental right.  However, Wiccan claims for the historical ancestry of much of their "theology" and ritual are absolutely false.  What they are practising is basically a modern folk tale about long-dead and -forgotten spiritual ancestors.

In case anyone is wondering, I've studied this fairly intensively for some years, including contact with Wiccan priests and priestesses, as well as a fairly extensive background in Africa, where shamanistic religion is still very widely practised and believed.  Obviously, I don't subscribe to Wiccan beliefs myself, but I number Wiccans among my friends.
Let's put the fun back in dysfunctional!

Please visit my blog: http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/

Strings

  • Guest
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2006, 06:46:42 PM »
Baus: source for what, exactly? I'm basing my statements on what Thelemics I know have stated...

>Let's be clear, folks:  Wicca as it is practised today has little or nothing to do with ancient religions.  The ancient beliefs died out centuries, even millennia, ago - little or nothing is known about them except what has come down to us in folk-tales, archaeological excavations, etc.  Certainly the "inner workings" of these religions, including their beliefs and religious practices, are almost completely unknown.<

Precisely. We can make educated guesses about what the ancients believed, but that's all they are, is guesses. And believe me, claiming "ancient ancestry" gets you seriously ridiculed among modern pagans...

>Aleister Crowley made up virtually all of his work from whole cloth, and has been thoroughly discredited by most scholars who understand historical investigation and analysis.  Much the same can be said of Gardner and the other "authors" of modern Wiccan practice.  As for those who claim "descent from the Druids" and such things - the Druids have been largely extinct for so long that they may as well claim descent from Atlantean priestesses.  It's a convenient label, but has nothing to do with the truth.<

Well... there ARE Celtic Reconstructionists, who are attempting to re-create the practices of ancient Celts. However, they'll be among the first to say "this is just our best guess"...

 And it wasn't just AC making things up out of whole cloth: there was a fair amount of narcotics involved as well... Wink

>That said, Wiccans are free to believe and practice their religion in any way they please - this is a fundamental right.  However, Wiccan claims for the historical ancestry of much of their "theology" and ritual are absolutely false.  What they are practising is basically a modern folk tale about long-dead and -forgotten spiritual ancestors.<

Hmmm... not sure how to take that. What I (and other Wiccans I know) practice is veneration of Nature in the form of dual Dieties (the Goddess and Horned God). Some DO use names from mythology (Norse and Greek are very popular)...

>Obviously, I don't subscribe to Wiccan beliefs myself, but I number Wiccans among my friends.<

Hope I'm counted in there, even if you DO have a habit of seriously bad puns...

Preacherman

  • Senior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 776
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2006, 07:46:00 PM »
Quote
Hope I'm counted in there, even if you DO have a habit of seriously bad puns...
Of course you are!  Consider the verbal gymnastics the Horned God's PUNishment of his servants . . . Cheesy
Let's put the fun back in dysfunctional!

Please visit my blog: http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/

BrokenPaw

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,674
  • Sedit qvi timvit ne non svccederet.
    • ShadowGrove Interpath Ministry
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2006, 04:03:15 AM »
Quote
Obviously, I don't subscribe to Wiccan beliefs myself
How can you say that?  How can you say that you, as a Priest of...oh.  Yes. Right.  Carry on, then.  Smiley
Quote
Consider the verbal gymnastics the Horned God's PUNishment of his servants . . .
I laughed so hard at that I almost got a HERNEia.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2006, 04:36:26 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
Rich... your tinfoil is getting too tight again.

>I was approaching it more from being one of Crowley's attempts to supplant/destroy Christianity<

Wicca is NOT an attempt to "destroy Christianity". The whole idea is absurd...
Crowley's active participation in the founding of modern Wicca was very much indeed a PART of his overall Anti-Christian agenda.  I never claimed that ALL of Wicca was completely dedicated to that end - however, Crowley's participation was to that end.

Quote
As far as Crowley's influence on Wicca (or, more to the point, Gardner), I'd (again) liken it to the Bible's influence on Tolkien: he had access too it, and oncorporated some of the ideas into his own work...
I'm sorry,... I missed it when Tolien announced that Moses, Solomon, Peter, and Mark collaberated on "The Hobbit".  Sorry again, but your extreme understating of the case won't fly..."We know the sources of most of the actual words used in the standard version of the Gardnerian rituals: it is a patchwork of Aradia, Crowley  principally the Gnostic Mass and "Liber Legis" (actually more likely "The Law of Liberty"[Medway '99]), The Key of Solomon, Masonic ritual, Carmina Gadelica, Kipling and various other sources."  From Roger Dearnaley's "An Annotated Chronology and Bibliography of the Early Gardnerian Craft"

Of course, if you have a credible, scholoarly souce that says otherwise....?

Quote
Might I suggest you get over thinking "we're out to get you"?
Huh?  I thought it was you  that thought Christians were out to harm....
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,456
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2006, 05:53:42 AM »
BrokenPaw:
Groan.....Tongue:
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

Strings

  • Guest
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2006, 07:41:10 PM »
>Crowley's active participation in the founding of modern Wicca was very much indeed a PART of his overall Anti-Christian agenda.  I never claimed that ALL of Wicca was completely dedicated to that end - however, Crowley's participation was to that end.<

What active participation? Because Gardner was influenced by his writings? I have yet to see evidence of AC actively doing ANYTHING for Wicca...

>I'm sorry,... I missed it when Tolien announced that Moses, Solomon, Peter, and Mark collaberated on "The Hobbit".<

If you were familiar with his stories, he put a LOT of Christian myth in: read the Silmarilion...

> Sorry again, but your extreme understating of the case won't fly..."We know the sources of most of the actual words used in the standard version of the Gardnerian rituals: it is a patchwork of Aradia, Crowley  principally the Gnostic Mass and "Liber Legis" (actually more likely "The Law of Liberty"[Medway '99]), The Key of Solomon, Masonic ritual, Carmina Gadelica, Kipling and various other sources."  From Roger Dearnaley's "An Annotated Chronology and Bibliography of the Early Gardnerian Craft"<

And this equates to AC activily participating how? Especially since Crowley was dead for ten years before Gardner published?

>Huh?  I thought it was you  that thought Christians were out to harm...<

Wow: when have I EVER made ANY claim about Christians in general, or Christianity itself? Cite posts. All anyone has to do is read the first post, and the line I qouted from it...

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,492
  • My prepositions are on/in
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2006, 06:47:55 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
Might I suggest you get over thinking "we're out to get you"?
I think Rich has more reason to believe that than you think.  It seems to me, as a Christian, that our religion has an inherent tendency to conspiracy theory.  

Firstly, our world is ruled by a shadow government of Satan and those under his influence.  The Book of Revelations speaks of Babylon the Great, often taken as a metaphor for the corrupt system of this world.  

Like conspiracy theory, those unaware of the plot (non-believers) are unwitting dupes of the mastermind.  When Christ rebuked the Pharisees, he called them "Sons of Hell" and "children of your father, the devil."  And there is no middle ground in Christianity - either one walks in the flesh or in the Spirit.  The unbeliever is a slave to sinful desires.

If Mr. Young is a Christian, then, it would be reasonable for him to take any point of view that contradicts Christianity as part of Satan's grand plot to defy God, even if those who developed that point of view, or those who hold it, don't intend it that way.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2006, 05:23:44 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
>Crowley's active participation in the founding of modern Wicca was very much indeed a PART of his overall Anti-Christian agenda.  I never claimed that ALL of Wicca was completely dedicated to that end - however, Crowley's participation was to that end.<

What active participation? Because Gardner was influenced by his writings? I have yet to see evidence of AC actively doing ANYTHING for Wicca...
"In 1947, his friend Arnold Crowther introduced Gardner to Aleister Crowley.  Their brief association would later lead to controversy over the authenticity of Gardners original Book of Shadows.  Crowley had allegedly been a member of one of Old George Pickingills original Nine Covens in the New Forest, and Gardner was especially interested in the rituals used by that coven, so to augment the fragmented rituals used by his own.  He asked Crowley to write down what he could remember and implement them with other magical materials.  Crowley by this time was in poor health and only months away from death, but he acquiesced to Gardners request.  He also made Gardner an honorary member of the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO), a Tantric sex magic order at one time under his leadership, and granted him a charter to operate his own lodge. "

by George Knowles.   at http://www.controverscial.com/Gerald%20Brosseau%20Gardner.htm

In the 1979 edition of Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess- Worshipers, and Other Pagans in America Today, Wiccan high priestess Mary Nesnick is quoted as saying [p. 64]:

 
"Fifty percent of modern Wicca is an invention bought and paid for by Gerald B. Gardner from Aleister Crowley.  Ten percent was 'borrowed' from books and manuscripts like Leland's text Aradia.  The forty remaining percent was borrowed from Far Eastern religions and philosophies, if not in word, then in ideas and basic principles."

Quote
>I'm sorry,... I missed it when Tolien announced that Moses, Solomon, Peter, and Mark collaberated on "The Hobbit".<

If you were familiar with his stories, he put a LOT of Christian myth in: read the Silmarilion...
The POINT would be that Gardner and Crowley have a known, well-documented association with each other, which substantially contributed to the modern Wiccan rituals - it went far beyond "influence", as even many Wiccans admoit.

Quote
And this equates to AC activily participating how? Especially since Crowley was dead for ten years before Gardner published?
For a Wiccan, you sure don't know much about your religion - s3ee above for the events of 1947.
Quote
>Huh?  I thought it was you  that thought Christians were out to harm...<

Wow: when have I EVER made ANY claim about Christians in general, or Christianity itself? Cite posts. All anyone has to do is read the first post, and the line I qouted from it...
You DENY have repeatedly related that you were threatened with bodily harm FOR BEING WICCAN by people presenting themselves as Christian?...

"As for this: "Hate to say it, but anyone of a Christian faith (of whatever variety) is in a kinda bad spot to claim "persecution" from, at least when talking to me...", when was the last time YOU had your life threatened for your religious beliefs? Are there some issues where people need to get over the "Seperation of Church and State"? Oh yeah... that particular issue needs to be let die. However, when I've had several offers of bodily harm from members of a religious group, and I hear other members of that group claim they're "persecuted" because they aren't allowed to pray at an event (or better, teach their version of myth as science), I get a lil' bucky..."

...ring any bells?
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2006, 06:09:41 AM »
Quote
Certainly the "inner workings" of these religions, including their beliefs and religious practices, are almost completely unknown.
I believe the closest we can come to aquiring this knowledge is to study the beliefs and practices of the last stone age man to be reached and destroyed by the European. The Australian Aborigine. The reason being that they were the most studied and wrote about by scholars as they were first reached fairly late in history mid 1700s IIRC. There are literally countless books on the subject. I have found a LOT of parallels between these societies and those that were extinguished much longer ago therefore it is my conjecture that a great deal can be inferred from this knowldge and applied to the more ancient societies. Having studied nothing on Wicca I can only venture a guess that it relates back to early European totemic societies and has "morphed", if you will, to what is it's present day status. Which is pretty much what all religions have done over time. Some dying out, some not. One thing of note is that apparently each Aussie tribe had it's own religious beliefs that somehow mirrored every other tribes beliefs but with slight modifications or "dialects" usually based in a big part on local flora and fauna. It's all very fascinating. To me anyways.

Let me give you a quick example. Did you know that some Aussie abo tribes not only believe(d) in giants but also in "little people" that "speak in hisses"? They hide amongst the rocks and bushes and only reveal themselves to you if they like you.

Cheesy
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Strings

  • Guest
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 06:44:01 AM »
Cool... i learned something: Gardner did supposedly meet and interact with Crowley. STILL doesn't work out as "A Crowley helped create Wicca to destroy Christianity"...

 Now, I'm REALLY trying to keep this civil. Honestly, by this point (were we face to face), i would probably try to leave...

>You DENY have repeatedly related that you were threatened with bodily harm FOR BEING WICCAN by people presenting themselves as Christian?...<

No, I do NOT deny it: it happened. however, I've also never claimed any form of Christian faith was designed to destroy Wicca. You DID catch that little difference, right? You claim that my faith was created as a weapon against yours...

>"As for this: "Hate to say it, but anyone of a Christian faith (of whatever variety) is in a kinda bad spot to claim "persecution" from, at least when talking to me...", when was the last time YOU had your life threatened for your religious beliefs? Are there some issues where people need to get over the "Seperation of Church and State"? Oh yeah... that particular issue needs to be let die. However, when I've had several offers of bodily harm from members of a religious group, and I hear other members of that group claim they're "persecuted" because they aren't allowed to pray at an event (or better, teach their version of myth as science), I get a lil' bucky..."

...ring any bells?<

Sure does... and I stand by it. Your point? Or ya just ranting now?

Preacherman

  • Senior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 776
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 07:25:43 AM »
Let me preface what I'm going to say here by pointing out that I know shamanistic, animist and primitive religions like few Westerners do.  I grew up surrounded by the African shamanistic faiths, and have worked extensively with sangomas, witch-doctors and the like.  I've studied the Asian equivalents, and the primitive pagan faiths of early Europe.  I've also studied Wicca extensively, and count a number of Wiccan practitioners from various backgrounds (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Gaelic, Druidic, Dianic, Asatru, etc.) among my acquaintances.  A couple of them rate as good friends.  So, I think I know what I'm talking about here.

Firstly, far too many people equate Wicca with Satanism.  The two are quite distinct.  Unfortunately, some of the better-known practitioners who have influenced Wicca (e.g. Crowley, Gardner, etc.) were quite openly Satanic in some of their ideas and expressions.  This has led to a confusion in the minds of many about the correlation between the two, and is one reason for the hostility expressed by many Christians towards Wicca.

Secondly, many of the rituals and "magick" developed by Crowley, Gardner, etc. are pure and simple garbage.  Gardner, for example, developed his emphasis on "sex magick" and the use of sex in rituals such as initiation, promotion, etc. purely and simply because of his desire to pursue an adulterous relationship with another woman.  I think the best summary I've seen is that by Adrian Bott (himself a Wiccan):  see his article at http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/articles/hoax.htm for a full analysis, particularly the second part, titled "Part Two:  Gardner's Motive".  I have researched this independently, and can confirm that Bott is speaking the exact and literal truth.  Anything Wiccan based on Gardner's work is automatically suspect and likely to be full of inaccuracies, just as Gardner was himself.

Much of the Wiccan mythology (e.g. the Goddess, the Horned God, etc.) can be clearly demonstrated to be fabrications of the last half of the 20th century.  Prior to this, there was relatively little known or written about these beliefs.  Some Wiccan groups try to claim that they're operating from a secret oral tradition, handed down in stealth over the centuries.  Unfortunately, there's no evidence whatsoever to back up their claims:  and linguistic analysis of their texts, rituals, etc. (which is a whole field of study in itself) shows clearly that these are fabrications based on more or less modern texts from other disciplines, beliefs, etc.

Another problem with much of the modern Wiccan movement is that it's an outgrowth of the "I'm OK, you're OK" school of psychology.  It tends to be self-centered to an absurd degree, promoting religious faith as an exploration of the divinity within each person, and thus justifies any conduct in search of that inner divinity as being religiously moral and OK.  This is often used as an excuse for drug use, orgies, sexual experimentation, etc.  I've met many so-called Wiccans who are not really religious at all in their approach to Wicca - it's simply a vehicle for sensual exploration.

However, given all these problems, I know full well that there are many Wiccan believers and practitioners who are genuinely seeking the Divine, by whatever name or under whatever form they know it.  They are not to blame for the ridiculous falsehoods and posturings of the "founders" of the movement, and are in their own way genuinely seeking God.  For this reason, I don't hold the falsehoods of Wicca against them.  They are following in the shamanistic tradition used across huge parts of the world to this day, seeking to encounter divinity in the world around them by interaction with nature and the things of nature.  Of course, I don't share their beliefs - I'm unshakeably Christian in my world-view, and don't expect this to change.  However, I freely grant to them the same freedom I expect to receive from others:  the right to seek God in my own way, according to the light I've been given.  I may disagree profoundly with much of their "theology" or weltanschaüng, but it's their choice, and they have the right to make it.

I think all of us need to sit back and think about this.  If we expect the right to believe (and practice our belief) as we wish, we must extend the same courtesy and freedom to all others, no matter how much we may disagree with them.  Of course, there are some belief systems (e.g. Satanism) that I'll fight with everything I have, because I believe them to be morally destructive and a serious danger to ordinary people:  but I must fight them with my own lived example, first of all, and then with argument and debate and discussion.  I can't just ban them, or kill their proponents - if I do so, what's to stop someone else doing the same to me because of my beliefs?

When we discuss Wicca, let's keep this in mind.  It may be far from our own view of God or religious faith - but those practising it have the same right to do so as we have for our own traditions.  A bit more mutual respect would go a long way, methinks . . .
Let's put the fun back in dysfunctional!

Please visit my blog: http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 07:27:25 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
Cool... i learned something: Gardner did supposedly meet and interact with Crowley. STILL doesn't work out as "A Crowley helped create Wicca to destroy Christianity"...
Almost everything Crowley did in the area of the occult and witchcraft was to replace or destroy Christainity - he was raised in a Puritan sect that taught that sex was sinful.  As soon as he could, he made it his life's work to destroy Christianity.  That's why he supported Communism, performed all kind of sexual perverions as "sex magic", took addictive and hallucinogenic drugs, and possibly why he corresponded with L. Ron Hubbard. So here is where we are.  You acknowledge, (I think), based on the sources I cite, that Crowley and Gardner did meet each other, and that Crowley wrote down magic practices for Gardner, at Gardner's request.  I submit that he did so as part of his pattern of anti-Christian behavior.  If you have evidence of some other motive, please present it.

Quote
>You DENY have repeatedly related that you were threatened with bodily harm FOR BEING WICCAN by people presenting themselves as Christian?...<

No, I do NOT deny it: it happened. however, I've also never claimed any form of Christian faith was designed to destroy Wicca. You DID catch that little difference, right? You claim that my faith was created as a weapon against yours...
I claim that Crowley's participation, which was fundamental, was in order to advance his life-long desire to diminish, supplant, or destroy Christianity - to that extent, it IS a weapon to destroy Christianity.  If I misunderstood your question -"Wow: when have I EVER made ANY claim about Christians in general, or Christianity itself?", then the fault  is mine, and I apologize.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 07:36:09 AM »
Quote from: fistful
If Mr. Young is a Christian, then, it would be reasonable for him to take any point of view that contradicts Christianity as part of Satan's grand plot to defy God, even if those who developed that point of view, or those who hold it, don't intend it that way.
In Crowley's case, there is no ambiguity - he despised Christianity, and did all that he could to destroy it.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

Strings

  • Guest
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 08:19:38 AM »
Preacherman: thanks for that. I was starting to feel just a little bit alone out here... Wink

 Yes, Wicca is a fairly new religion, and it has it's share of skeletons on it's closet. I've firmly believed for many years that Gardner's prime motivation in creating Wicca was the desire to get laid: that was QUITE common in the occult movements of the early 20th. However, the movement has grown beyond that (well, for some people). We have no interest in hurting anybody, or destroying anything... so let it go Rich, please.

 Oh... "persecution". The ONLY faith (currently practiced) I can think of that has a right to the title of "persecuted" would be Judaism: they've been stamped on by pretty much everybody throughout the ages. Individual members of a faith can claim persecution by individual members of other faiths (my case), or even government (thinking A-Stan here). But no other relgion has the rights to the title more than the Jews. So until I hear Rabbi ranting about how he's persecuted, I think everyone else needs to drop that whole "my faith is persecuted!" line...

And my last direct reply to Rich:
>Almost everything Crowley did in the area of the occult and witchcraft was to replace or destroy Christainity - he was raised in a Puritan sect that taught that sex was sinful.  As soon as he could, he made it his life's work to destroy Christianity.  That's why he supported Communism, performed all kind of sexual perverions as "sex magic", took addictive and hallucinogenic drugs, and possibly why he corresponded with L. Ron Hubbard. So here is where we are.  You acknowledge, (I think), based on the sources I cite, that Crowley and Gardner did meet each other, and that Crowley wrote down magic practices for Gardner, at Gardner's request.  I submit that he did so as part of his pattern of anti-Christian behavior.  If you have evidence of some other motive, please present it.<

Odd... quite the conspiracy you've got there. Not THE most far-out I've ever seen, but it has it's points. But let's see if I can ascribe slightly different motives:

>That's why he supported Communism,< hmm... last time I checked, he would've been supporting it right near it's begining: at that point, the difference between how it looked on paper and reality hadn't reared up. He might have genuinely thought it was the best bet for mankind...

>That's why he performed all kind of sexual perverions as "sex magic"< Or maybe he was just kinda horny? Remember, many of the occult movements at the turn of the century had lots of sexuality involved. And the general view seemed to be "the kinkier, the better"...

>That's why he took addictive and hallucinogenic drugs< Actually, there's been a LOT of online discussion about this topic. Some feel that certain hallucinogenes can expand your mind, and enable you to reach higher plains. Most (at least, of the pagans *I* know) feel that such a "shortcut" will cheapen whatever enlightenment you attain (assuming you reach anything at all). However, IIRC that was what Crowley was supposedly going for (and I say that fully realizing that may have just been a justification)...

>and possibly why he corresponded with L. Ron Hubbard.<

That had NOTHING to do with Christianity, everything to do with poor taste in literature!

>You acknowledge, (I think), based on the sources I cite, that Crowley and Gardner did meet each other, and that Crowley wrote down magic practices for Gardner, at Gardner's request.<

I'll accept, based n what you've presented, that it's VERY possible. *I* wasn't there, neither were you, nor anyone else on this board. That good enough for ya?

>I submit that he did so as part of his pattern of anti-Christian behavior.  If you have evidence of some other motive, please present it.<

Ok, I'll play... let's say that he did, in fact, do this exactly as you claim. What IS your point? I won't argue your hypothesis anymore Rich: as I said, none of us were present. But, saying that it IS the case, then what IS your point of bringing it up and harping on it?

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
oragins of Wicca?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 08:20:28 AM »
Thanks for the insight Preacher. Very interesting, I wished I'd been afforded the same opportunities for contact with these religions that you have. When I say religions have "morphed" I will add that in some cases they did so at the behest of those who would distort them as a means to their own end. That in many cases these beliefs and rituals were used to gain and hold a certain amount of control over their followers and manipulated to bring this about. Eg, "If you do such and such a thing you will go to the place of the blue turtles" as a means to keep the young uns in line, for since a very early age they have been taught that the place of the blue turtles is a very bad place to go. Sounds to me a bit like what you're describing in the evolution of the Wiccan faith. Crowley and Gardner inventing a whole series of rituals that served to help them fulfill themselves.

Another example I can recall is one where a local tribe believed that a certain tree with a big boll in it's trunk was / is the mother of their tribe and all creation, the boll representing her pregnant stomach and the tree a major part of their ceremonies. However, in actuality, the tree is at BEST 100 years old and certainly nowhere around at the time the tribe came to be in existence. So we have an example of a belief that a certain tree that is only 100 yrs old is the mother of all creation. What did they believe before the tree became mom? Who decided one day all of a sudden that this tree was what they claimed? Could very easily have been a Shaman who'd had a vision I guess.
Avoid cliches like the plague!