Punk Rockers Make Good Conservatives

[roo_ster]

http://takimag.com/article/punk_rockers_make_good_conservatives_gavin_mcinnes/print

I grew up playing in hardcore punk bands and fighting skinheads, and the political mantra for that scene was “Anarchy and Peace.” It seems incredibly naïve in retrospect, but being into punk rock was actually great training for becoming a rational, libertarian, paleoconservative adult. Here are 10 reasons why:
....

gunsmith, is that you? 

Actually, looking at the guy's bioblurb, he seems a decade or so removed.

[drewtam]

My experience with American Punk is that it had an Anarchist veneer with a socialist utopian ideology. Yes, I know that doesn't work. I'm not saying their politics were well thought out, just that is what it was. Can't say I was much better though. It took me several teenage years before figuring out Rage Against the Machine wasn't liberty oriented, they definitely self identify in the Socialist Revolutionary camp.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Dad was a punk, and in some ways, still is.

I think for him it was less about politics and more about freedom of expression and ideas, and you didn't need to wrap it up in a pretty package.

it was subservive and dirty scene, reflecting the failings of the peace and love of the earlier generation.

[MicroBalrog]

He doesn't seem to know that anarchism and libertarianism aren't mutually opposed.

[roo_ster]

He doesn't seem to know that anarchism and libertarianism aren't mutually opposed.

Or he belives libertarian lies that they are not anarchists?

[gunsmith]

http://takimag.com/article/punk_rockers_make_good_conservatives_gavin_mcinnes/print


gunsmith, is that you? 

Actually, looking at the guy's bioblurb, he seems a decade or so removed.

LOL, actually I got beat up by the skinheads more then the other way around. Yet for some reason got featured in a photo on Agnostic Fronts first album  ... then they were all cool with me

I have many friends that imagine they're anarchist but are actually quite liberal, have met many self proclaimed libertarians who are the same.

Currently me and a old punker/Pastor alky in AA are looking into "anarChristianity" as a vehicle for helping those who might reject other kinds of spiritual guidance towards a conservative viewpoint.   

Thank you Rooster, very kind of you.

[gunsmith]

On the streets back then, skinheads would fight you for your boots or even your Zippo lighter. Or they’d come directly to shows and attack you in the mosh pit.

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Skinheads did used to go beat up punks and anarchist, I once went to a "burn a flag on flag day" event in NYC but dressed "normal" and didn't participate. The much smaller crowd of skins beat the crap out of the much larger crowd of so called anarchist.

My skin friends had warned me there was gonna be a confrontation, a lot of pseudo anarchist learned that free speech doesn't mean no consequences.

Great article!

 

[Regolith]

Or he belives libertarian lies that they are not anarchists?

 

Some libertarians are anarchists, that is true. But the majority are not; they range from small-government fiscal conservatives who disagree with the socons on social issues to minarchists, who believe in minimalist government. When you start out with the premise that big government is bad, there are inevitably going to be some who take that to its logical conclusion and assume ALL government is bad, but that is an extreme position even within the libertarian community.

To say that all libertarians lie when they say they're not anarchists (believe me, the ones who ARE will let you know; they aren't subtle about it)  is to say that all conservatives lie when they say that they believe in small-government and fiscal responsibility, and then pointing to the George Bush administration as proof of that lie.

[erictank]

Or he belives libertarian lies factual statements that they are not anarchists?

FTFY.

Individual libertarians might be anarchists.  Anarchists might be libertarians.  Libertarianism != anarchism.

As a concrete example countering your factually-incorrect supposition - I am a libertarian.  I am not an anarchist. And I'm far from alone in that, even among the comparatively-small group of libertarians in our society. I would guess, if asked, that MOST libertarians are not anarchists.

[MicroBalrog]

Most libertarians are minarchists, but libertarian anarchism exists (Murray Rothbard, anyone), and is not inherently as opposed to libertarianism as some might think.

[Jamisjockey]

Roo_ster
Would you like to know where I got the idea for a unanimous representative government?
L. Neil Smith.
I'd say that's hardly anarchist.

[erictank]

Roo_ster
Would you like to know where I got the idea for a unanimous representative government?
L. Neil Smith.
I'd say that's hardly anarchist.

And they don't come much more libertarian than L. Neil.

[roo_ster]

Obviously all of y'all have missed the innumerable times when, in debates of various sorts, the libertarian makes the "I am not an anarchist" plea...usually after having been accused of being an anarchist.

Some folks are actually gullible enough to believe them, to include the author of the article in the OP.

Most libertarians are minarchists, but libertarian anarchism exists (Murray Rothbard, anyone), and is not inherently as opposed to libertarianism as some might think.

Yep.

OTOH, most self-described American "libertarians" merely hold classically liberal views and latch on to the libertarian label because they are making the incorrect libertarian ~ classically liberal/pre-Progressive/Constitutional view of American gov't.

I agree 100% that those who actually understand and buy into libertarian principles are as you describe.  These are the sort I referenced.  Oh, yes, some of them are quite open about the "anarch" in their libertarianism (min-, -capitalist, etc.).  Others use the not-really-libertarians as cover, similar to the way the Marxists use the popular fronts.  (Not as successfully, of course.)

Roo_ster
Would you like to know where I got the idea for a unanimous representative government?
L. Neil Smith.
I'd say that's hardly anarchist.

It wasn't in the list top 10 of questions I have.  Of course, I got the idea for unanimous representative gov't from the Articles of Confederation.  I hear its authors were men of note, even if most went by their first name.

[Jamisjockey]

I'm not sure you got my point in your rush to be insulting and condesending.
If a noted Libertarian author is pushing the idea of representative government, then I think that goes to the heart of the matter.  Anarchists don't believe in government.  Libertarians want to tie its hands behind its back and throw away the key.

[Tallpine]

My only problem with anarchy is that by 10am tomorrow someone would have formed a committee to talk about how to start a new government 

[Perd Hapley]

I'm not sure you got my point in your rush to be insulting and condesending.
If a noted Libertarian author is pushing the idea of representative government, then I think that goes to the heart of the matter.  Anarchists don't believe in government.  Libertarians want to tie its hands behind its back and throw away the key.

What he seems to be saying (and says pretty often) is that most people who think they are libertarians (probably even the guy you're referring to) are not. If they really were, they'd be anarchists, because libertarianism = anarchy.

That seems to be roo_ster's view of the subject.

[Perd Hapley]

My only problem with anarchy is that by 10am tomorrow someone would have formed a committee to talk about how to start a new government 

Yeah. For anarchy to work, people have to keep from abusing one another. Or they have to quit forcing other people to play government. We have millenia of human history to see how often that actually happens.

[MicroBalrog]

OTOH, most self-described American "libertarians" merely hold classically liberal views and latch on to the libertarian label because they are making the incorrect libertarian ~ classically liberal/pre-Progressive/Constitutional view of American gov't.

I see libertarianism as a modern-day grandson of classical liberalism. Better, shinier, with lasers on its head.

And hopefully a dozen times nastier.

[Regolith]

What he seems to be saying (and says pretty often) is that most people who think they are libertarians (probably even the guy you're referring to) are not. If they really were, they'd be anarchists, because libertarianism = anarchy.

That seems to be roo_ster's view of the subject.

If that is his view, then he's wrong. There's already a word for anarchism; it's, well, anarchism. Libertarians are simply people who believe in maximizing  human liberty to the furthest extent that is possible and/or practical. Where they believe that line lies depends on the individual libertarian; most believe it should stop somewhere short of anarchy. Therefor, they are not anarchists, no matter how much roo_ster proclaims otherwise.

[Jamisjockey]

If that is his view, then he's wrong. There's already a word for anarchism; it's, well, anarchism. Libertarians are simply people who believe in maximizing  human liberty to the furthest extent that is possible and/or practical. Where they believe that line lies depends on the individual libertarian; most believe it should stop somewhere short of anarchy. Therefor, they are not anarchists, no matter how much roo_ster proclaims otherwise.

This.

[roo_ster]

If that is his view, then he's wrong. There's already a word for anarchism; it's, well, anarchism. Libertarians are simply people who believe in maximizing  human liberty to the furthest extent that is possible and/or practical. Where they believe that line lies depends on the individual libertarian; most believe it should stop somewhere short of anarchy. Therefor, they are not anarchists, no matter how much roo_ster proclaims otherwise.

Well, let us take a look at some of the folk who often sail under the libertarian flag:
* anarcho-capitalism (Hell-O Murray Rothbard!)
* minarchism
* market anarchism
* libertarian anarchism
* propertarian anarchism


MB's point that libertarianism is not antithetical to (or is at least accommodating of) anarchism is spot-on.  In that sense, I agree, given the evidence.

I see libertarianism as a modern-day grandson of classical liberalism. Better, shinier, with lasers on its head.

And hopefully a dozen times nastier.

I see libertarianism as classical liberalism without an anchor in reality or tradition.  IMO, libertarianism is an artificial development of the ivory tower, whereas classical liberalism grew organically out of a real culture of real humans over real time in a real space.

I suspect, like most utopian philosophies, it would be a dozen times nastier than classical liberalism.  Just as all the utopians who gained power eventually slaughtered their own were pretty nasty.

[MicroBalrog]

Well, let us take a look at some of the folk who often sail under the libertarian flag:
* anarcho-capitalism (Hell-O Murray Rothbard!)
* minarchism
* market anarchism
* libertarian anarchism
* propertarian anarchism


MB's point that libertarianism is not antithetical to (or is at least accommodating of) anarchism is spot-on.  In that sense, I agree, given the evidence.

The point which I also try to make is that libertarianism accomodates a range of movements.


Minarchism (which by definition accepts a state, so is not a form of anarchism).
Anarcho-capitalism (which is obviously a form of anarchism. Unlike most posters here I don't view anarchism as automatically stupid, I don't. I'm a minarchist but if someone manages to take over an island and declare it an ancap society, I'm game).

I see libertarianism as classical liberalism without an anchor in reality or tradition.  IMO, libertarianism is an artificial development of the ivory tower, whereas classical liberalism grew organically out of a real culture of real humans over real time in a real space.

It worked out so well for them.

[Tallpine]

I see libertarianism as classical liberalism without an anchor in reality or tradition.  IMO, libertarianism is an artificial development of the ivory tower, whereas classical liberalism grew organically out of a real culture of real humans over real time in a real space.

I suspect, like most utopian philosophies, it would be a dozen times nastier than classical liberalism.  Just as all the utopians who gained power eventually slaughtered their own were pretty nasty.

Libertarians gaining power is sort of an oxymoron 

[roo_ster]

I see libertarianism as classical liberalism without an anchor in reality or tradition.  IMO, libertarianism is an artificial development of the ivory tower, whereas classical liberalism grew organically out of a real culture of real humans over real time in a real space.

It worked out so well for them.

Relative to what/whom?  Relative to every society/culture of significance up to that time and almost every culture/society through today?  I would say, heck yes, it worked out well for them, having birthed the USA on those principles.  It is not their fault their lesser decedents did not string up the leftists from the nearest tree for subverting the COTUS.

[MicroBalrog]

It worked out so well for them.

Relative to what/whom?  Relative to every society/culture of significance up to that time and almost every culture/society through today?  I would say, heck yes, it worked out well for them, having birthed the USA on those principles.  It is not their fault their lesser decedents did not string up the leftists from the nearest tree for subverting the COTUS.

Classical liberalism is a fairly recent phenomenon - (unless we encompass "people who liked freedom, going back to Aristotle" in it. The definition usually used speaks of the movement that developed in the 19th century (rather postdating the Constitution). Of the Founders, you can find various people endorsing a range of ideas.