Author Topic: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying  (Read 19884 times)

T.O.M.

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2012, 04:08:31 PM »
First, are we all just a bunch of gun-loving geeks, since this thread is going on and on, and I just read it start to finish?   :laugh:

Second, my though with the Star Trek vs. Star Wars thing is that I always felt that Star Trek was this sqeeky clean Utopia where people hold hands and sing songs together before having lots of casual sex.  In other words, it's Hippies in Space.  I mean, even there guns don't really have to kill people, they just knock them out.  (Thankfully, Star Wars stopped the stun crap after the boarding party caught the Princess).  Staw Wars is much more like the real world.  Things get dirty. Things break.  People work in jobs to earn money.  There's crime, and then there's the Imperial Military to combat crime, and everything else.

For fun, go tou Youtube and check out the set very high quality fan films called IMPS (Imperial Military Personnel Stories).  Funny, and very well done.  Sorry I can't link.  The work network won't let me into Youtube right now.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2012, 04:12:09 PM »
Certainly not decadence.  Based on what I've read about him, he's at the point where he can afford to pursue projects like Virgin Galactic out of interest in space flight as much as any interest in monetary gain.  He probably wouldn't pursue it as a money-losing venture, but I doubt that's the primary motivation.  The company is worth $900mil and he's worth $4.2billion.

It might be more accurate to say he's pushing the application of science and technology. 

Chris

AJ Dual

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2012, 04:29:17 PM »
I would think that a universe where there were no scarcity would be a place where the human mind isn't wired up for.

We are all biological animals and need to compete by our genetic programming.

Having everything available at any time for replication would be like having enormous wealth- probably even better.

The problem is that people who are enormously wealthy do only a few things:
1. Try to become wealthier.
2. Become decadent/self destructive (especially if the wealth was given to without being earned).
3. Use the wealth to help others- charities, etc.
4. Use the wealth to push boundaries -science, exploration, etc.

If you have eliminated items #1 and #3 (unless I'm missing more categories), it only leaves #2 and #4.
#4 would be showcased in Star Trek, but what of #2?
We've all seen what happens to people who win the big lotteries, I haven't seen one go down path #4 yet.

Quite true. Nobody knows what a post-scarcity society would look like, how it would work, or if we'd even survive it. Although the flip side is that our biological competitive nature, for space, resources, sex, and just plain dominance (to better ensure the first three)  colors a lot of our own thinking about the future, and what other players will do.

"ALIENS GONNA EAT US/DESTROY US/ENSLAVE US!"
"AI GONNA EAT US/DESTROY US/ENSLAVE US!"

Etc. etc. etc.

Despite the effort invested in pointy ears and bad haircuts to put Vulcans on screen, nobody that I'm aware of has ever really looked at ANY facet of our existence from a purely logical or game-theory standpoint to make rational guesses as to what will happen in terms of aliens, AI, or post-scarcity society. It's impossible to truly stand outside our human frame of reference and make unbiased calculations on these things.

Although that goes back to my even BIGGER criticisms of science fiction, especially on screen, that it is nowhere near inventive or truly speculative enough to cope with ANY of the "big ideas".

Five hundred years in our future, with only one minor setback around the 21st century with a nuclear war? Matter/Antimatter energy? AI, genetic engineering, FTL?

Honestly, we would should probably look more like the "Q", or maybe the monoliths of 2001: a Space Odyssey, than the Federation.

It's not exactly a great metric, but if you look at our computers, phones, tablets etc. and compare them to STNG's set designs of just 25 years ago, you can see how our "future" is arriving faster than a TV show full of writers and prop makers with a budget of millions could imagine or depict in a convincing manner.

One Sci Fi author of note, William Gibson actually recognized the problem, and "gave up" on writing cyberpunk as Sci Fi, and pretty much now just considers his works to be contemporary techno-fiction set in "today" more or less.

Of course, if you genuinely try to recognize this fact, and write for it... it absolutely KILLS every Sci Fi franchise of note that's at all interesting. Otherwise all Sci Fi would read like one of these two scenarios:

1. Humanity was stupid and wiped themselves out already. So there's really not much to tell. The end.

2. There was some sort of a problem. Well, not exactly a "problem" per-se, but a potential problem, because what passes for "people" in the future were smart enough to see it coming, and did something about it in plenty of time because they were incredibly powerful, wise, and nearly omnipotent. So the problem never actually happened. The end.

"1.5" scenarios, somewhere in-between, like Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly, BSG.. you name it. It's wishful thinking in the extreme just so the writers have a universe or place to play around in.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 04:41:38 PM by AJ Dual »
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2012, 04:48:20 PM »


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mtnbkr

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2012, 05:28:49 PM »
It's not exactly a great metric, but if you look at our computers, phones, tablets etc. and compare them to STNG's set designs of just 25 years ago, you can see how our "future" is arriving faster than a TV show full of writers and prop makers with a budget of millions could imagine or depict in a convincing manner.

Along the same lines...

This weekend, my wife and I were driving along in our stylin' minivan.  We had been furniture shopping and she wanted to do some comparison shopping with a store back here in NoVA (we were in her hometown at the time).  She got my "smartphone", pulled up the store's website, and got prices for comparable pieces.  It hit me at that moment that we were living a science fiction moment compared to when we were in HS just 20 years prior.  Back then, the idea that we could use our portable phones (which were bulky "bag" phones if you had anything at all) to get on the global communications and media network to shop for furniture while driving down the road was pure fantasy.

ST:TNG came out when I was a Freshman in HS.

Chris

TommyGunn

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2012, 07:43:08 PM »




Hahahaha!  FINALLY a REAL REASON to fear STAR TREK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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RevDisk

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2012, 09:57:37 AM »
Although that goes back to my even BIGGER criticisms of science fiction, especially on screen, that it is nowhere near inventive or truly speculative enough to cope with ANY of the "big ideas".

Five hundred years in our future, with only one minor setback around the 21st century with a nuclear war? Matter/Antimatter energy? AI, genetic engineering, FTL?

Honestly, we would should probably look more like the "Q", or maybe the monoliths of 2001: a Space Odyssey, than the Federation.

Considering the next equiv "internet" tech explosion will be bioengineering...  We're gonna look a lot weirder than Q or a monolith.


This weekend, my wife and I were driving along in our stylin' minivan.  We had been furniture shopping and she wanted to do some comparison shopping with a store back here in NoVA (we were in her hometown at the time).  She got my "smartphone", pulled up the store's website, and got prices for comparable pieces.  It hit me at that moment that we were living a science fiction moment compared to when we were in HS just 20 years prior.  Back then, the idea that we could use our portable phones (which were bulky "bag" phones if you had anything at all) to get on the global communications and media network to shop for furniture while driving down the road was pure fantasy.

We ARE in a dystopian science fiction future. Think of your furniture experience, and now also ponder that we have swarms of AI enhanced, effectively cloaked (from POV of ground), missile armed UAV drones controlled by unelected, unaccountable government drones that assassinate folks without process of law or effective oversight.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

AJ Dual

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2012, 10:14:13 AM »
Considering the next equiv "internet" tech explosion will be bioengineering...  We're gonna look a lot weirder than Q or a monolith.


We ARE in a dystopian science fiction future. Think of your furniture experience, and now also ponder that we have swarms of AI enhanced, effectively cloaked (from POV of ground), missile armed UAV drones controlled by unelected, unaccountable government drones that assassinate folks without process of law or effective oversight.


Indeed. However, they're assassinating folks I don't like so far.

It won't be dystopic until they assassinate someone I do like.
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brimic

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2012, 10:16:39 AM »
The technology is very close if not present already to have chips implanted in skulls that could beam internetz/texting/phones/facebook directly into the brain. Its just a matter of miniaturizing, mass producing, and convincing people that they 'need' it. I would bet that its less than 20 years away.
Of course if bread and circuses can be implanted directly into our brains, so could an array of negatives ranging from suggestive messages to pain.


Baahhh
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TommyGunn

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2012, 11:02:33 AM »
 [popcorn]
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Ned Hamford

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2012, 11:14:50 AM »
The technology is very close if not present already to have chips implanted in skulls that could beam internetz/texting/phones/facebook directly into the brain. Its just a matter of miniaturizing, mass producing, and convincing people that they 'need' it. I would bet that its less than 20 years away.
Of course if bread and circuses can be implanted directly into our brains, so could an array of negatives ranging from suggestive messages to pain.

This is a fun concept to explore.
http://youtu.be/kGvIrf86g4Y

Check out the book Feed by M.T. Anderson.  It explores a society changed by having the internet in your head. I enjoyed listening to the audio book free online thanks to the NYPL.  If anyone has an account there its actually available for checkout right now.  

Edit: And there is another quick fun book named Feed, part of a trilogy, about bloggers in the post zombie apocalypse.  It is also a lot of fun. 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 11:28:54 AM by Ned Hamford »
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makattak

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2012, 11:30:33 AM »
This is a fun concept to explore.
http://youtu.be/kGvIrf86g4Y

Check out the book Feed by M.T. Anderson.  It explores a society changed by having the internet in your head. I enjoyed listening to the audio book free online thanks to the NYPL.  If anyone has an account there its actually available for checkout right now. 

I believe there was a StarGate episode about a world that operated similarly...
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Tallpine

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2012, 12:13:53 PM »
So hearing voices in your head won't be considered abnormal anymore  =D
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brimic

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2012, 12:21:29 PM »
Quote
So hearing voices in your head won't be considered abnormal anymore

Most of mine tell me to stay home from work and clean my guns.
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lee n. field

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2012, 12:54:00 PM »
The technology is very close if not present already to have chips implanted in skulls that could beam internetz/texting/phones/facebook directly into the brain. Its just a matter of miniaturizing, mass producing, and convincing people that they 'need' it. I would bet that its less than 20 years away.
Of course if bread and circuses can be implanted directly into our brains, so could an array of negatives ranging from suggestive messages to pain.


Baahhh

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Scout26

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2012, 12:56:36 PM »
Indeed. However, they're assassinating folks I don't like so far.

It won't be dystopic until they assassinate someone I do like.

That's a very, very short putt.
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RevDisk

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2012, 01:37:58 PM »
The technology is very close if not present already to have chips implanted in skulls that could beam internetz/texting/phones/facebook directly into the brain. Its just a matter of miniaturizing, mass producing, and convincing people that they 'need' it. I would bet that its less than 20 years away.
Of course if bread and circuses can be implanted directly into our brains, so could an array of negatives ranging from suggestive messages to pain.

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41magsnub

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2012, 01:41:56 PM »
I can't wait to get spam directly into my brain!

AJ Dual

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2012, 02:15:29 PM »
That's a very, very short putt.

Hence the satire.  ;)

Perhaps this is borderline sociopathic of me to think, but in a "silver lining" sense, the one upside to dystopia is that it's less boring than utopia.
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HankB

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2012, 02:16:31 PM »
. . . It hit me at that moment that we were living a science fiction moment compared to when we were in HS just 20 years prior.   . . .
Nope . . . not until I get my atomic powered flying car.

And my jetpack . . . I want my personal jetpack.

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Ned Hamford

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2012, 12:32:41 AM »
I've been marathoning star trek episodes and am again struck with a really disturbing observation. 

Does it bother anyone else that when Starfleet rescues its crew members from some alien slavery ring, or forced death match cage fighting cartel ect, they just leave everyone else behind? I mean, I'd think freeing folks from slavery would be a sure way to make lasting friendships.

Heck, on a few occasions they've just left everyone else to die along with the baddies. 

While its really just bad writing, I enjoy pretending that the crews are all just a little bit crazy.  Voyager is of course the worst.  The captain is an idealist, allowing her ship to be severely damaged time and again rather than engage in 'unnecessary violence' or escalation... both in other episodes causes or allows the death of folks while smirking with her first officer... Mr. Natural Death Processes...  The worst!

:Ned continues ranting on for some time:
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just Warren

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2012, 01:52:31 AM »
That is what bothers me about the show. If you are not a Starfleet sailor or a scientist you don't mean anything to the Federation.

In ToS about the only civilians we meet are colonists who invariably have screwed soemthing up so bad they need the crew of Starfleet's best ship to help them out. Or the wacky inhabitants of a forgotten planet that only exist to be an object lesson. Of course the show was centered around that ship and her crew but they could have thrown some civilian love around at least a few times.

I never saw enough of NG or DS9 to see if things changed, so maybe things got better in that department.

The ST universe seemed so insular and lacking in vibrancy. I don't see what about it causes people to go all cos play crazy.

Star Wars on the other tentacle has a lot of non-military types running around. So even though the focus is on the Alliance v Empire struggles there is a sense of a dynamic universe populated by selfs rather than serfs. This despite the Emperor's gnarled claws trying to grasp all they could.
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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2012, 07:58:30 AM »
I pretty much gave up on the Star Trek franchise after they mangled the Maquis storyline.

 http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Maquis

After portraying them as terrorists over the course of two series, the Maquis was conveniently wiped out off-screen. Then the Federation goes out of its way to liberate & rebuild the Cardassians....the empire that attacked & terrorized the Maquis in the first place.....  :facepalm:

Right then, I discovered that the Federation was no better than the Alliance....
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2012, 08:22:41 AM »
Nope . . . not until I get my atomic powered flying car.


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Quote
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lee n. field

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2012, 08:35:59 AM »
I've been marathoning star trek episodes and am again struck with a really disturbing observation. 

Does it bother anyone else that when Starfleet rescues its crew members from some alien slavery ring, or forced death match cage fighting cartel ect, they just leave everyone else behind? I mean, I'd think freeing folks from slavery would be a sure way to make lasting friendships.

Heck, on a few occasions they've just left everyone else to die along with the baddies. 


:Ned continues ranting on for some time:

Maybe they're really militant an-caps, and only help with those they're contractually obligated to.

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