Wisconsin Cops Confiscate Families' Bail Money

[MicroBalrog]

Yup.

There are many places in the US where $50k/year is a comfortable existence.  Maybe not "new car every 4yrs and big screen TVs in every room", but certainly not poverty either.

Chris

The problem also is that many people who are statistically poor are living a life that would - in living memory - have been described as a middle class life.

The only reason this is not widely recognized is the insistence of statisticians that wealth only exists in comparison to the wealth of others.

[cordex]

Eh, with 75% of the population making less than $50,000 a year, there won't be a middle class to get angry with police.

Wait, 75% of the population or 75% of households?  As of last year median household income was a smidge under $50,000.  That means almost half of households make more than $50k a year, not just the top quartile.  On the other hand, if you mean that including children, stay-at-home mothers and fathers, retirees and so forth alongside your burger engineers and custodial technicians then the 75% makes a little sense.  That's a pretty lame manipulation of the statistics however, since a two-income family where both parties make $40k a year in many parts of the US would be pretty solidly upper-middle class.  And if that family had a couple of children, the whole upper-middle-class family suddenly becomes part of your 75%.

I certainly agree about inflation rapidly eating away at things and there are reasonable arguments against both spouses working, but I don't buy your depiction of the numbers.

[Balog]

The problem also is that many people who are statistically poor are living a life that would - in living memory - have been described as a middle class life.

The only reason this is not widely recognized is the insistence of statisticians that wealth only exists in comparison to the wealth of others.

I could not agree more.

[De Selby]

The problem also is that many people who are statistically poor are living a life that would - in living memory - have been described as a middle class life.

The only reason this is not widely recognized is the insistence of statisticians that wealth only exists in comparison to the wealth of others.

Middle is a relative term - I'm not sure it makes sense to describe a class of people's wealth with it if it's unrelated to the rest of the population.

Monkeyleg, that southern CPI must be awesome - I pay about $20 for a jar of instant coffee.   

[Monkeyleg]

Monkeyleg, that southern CPI must be awesome - I pay about $20 for a jar of instant coffee.   

I don't drink coffee, so I saved $20 right there. :)

[Northwoods]

See, the beauty of DS's claims is that no matter the reality he can sleep well assured that he's right.  Because the way he's defined practically all the terms of his arguement they get to mean whatever the heck he wants them to mean. 

Middle class - You don't have as much as the richest of the day.  Never mind how much better in absolute terms you have than 15 years ago.

$50k income - Plenty now, but just you wait until a few years of inflation goes by (never mind that the incomes will also inflate).  Besides, there's always pointless anecdotes to illustrate such a point.

75% - Lets just pull some numbers out of the air and hope they're accepted uncritically.  If not just ignore the issue and pretend its been accepted.

[De Selby]

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032011/perinc/new01_001.htm

Yeah, so what does middle class mean again?  If its not relative, well, Cambodian peasants are probably a lot better off today than haitian sugar cane hands were in the 1700s.   Not sure that makes them middle class.

[drewtam]

From what I know of Roman, Medieval, Modern Europe, and US history...

Home ownership seems to have the best correlation to a middle class.

Rome:
Optimates and similar had huge estates and paid for the military (which is why they had control, and could make themselves emperor).
The Plebians & freemen rarely owned property. They performed subsistence farm work on the estates. Even lower was the slaves.
In the cities there was a small middle class which owned homes, ran business. Often the same building.
The poor rented apartments and ate fast food everyday (no kitchens in the apartments).

Medieval to Modern:
Middle class collapsed after Rome. But the 12th century mini-rebirth, and famous 16th century rebirth was marked by artisan and business middle classes exploding in the cities, again, buying homes. Especially in the cities where they were well equipped to protect property rights from the bullying of the nobles living in the country estates. See wikipedia French bourgeoisie - "The Modern French word bourgeois derived from the Old French burgeis (walled city), which derived from bourg (market town), from the Old Frankish burg (town)".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourgeoisie

US History-
As an English colony the major lure of immigrating was not just religious freedom for the minority that is deeply committed. It was really the possibility of owning farms on the American frontier, compared to the expense of property in stagnant and crowded UK and Europe. The US was born in 1776 as a country were anyone could move to the frontier and establish a new farm and homestead. Otherwise, stay in the city and start a business/home. We were a country born almost exclusively middle class, which is very peculiar in history. I've heard a historian claim that we didn't have our first equivalent of a millionaire until decades after the war was won.


Home ownership is correlated to stable families, stable and important social/political connections, and productive lifestyles. These traits are not just western, but seem roughly universal across the world and across history.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/article772689.ece


Since homes are mostly a collection of basic commodities, mostly unskilled labor, and some skilled labor then it tracks very well with inflation (except 2006 bubble).
http://www.multpl.com/case-shiller-home-price-index-inflation-adjusted/

[cordex]

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032011/perinc/new01_001.htm

Okay ... so you are looking at personal income versus household income.  Or, put another way if a hypothetical 15 year old kid doesn't make $50k+ a year then he's in your non-middle-class bucket, even if one of his parents makes $80k.  That about right?

[Balog]

Sumpnz: the assumption that wages will increase along with inflation has not been born out in the last decades.