Author Topic: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty  (Read 13727 times)

De Selby

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2012, 12:49:46 AM »
The state is doing a pretty good job of raising feral youths, obese dependents, gang bangers and drug addicts. Sorry, but assistance really means dependence. 
Do you consider dependence to be compassion?

No, I don't, but I recognise the reality that millions of children (literally) get fed right now by the government - before cutting that off on principle Id like to see a realistic forecast for how the need gets met.

It's easy enough to blame it on their parents poor choices, but when those children grow up, they'll need to have at least a chance of making better ones.   Not going to happen unless we have some way to get basic nutrition and education services to them.
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cordex

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2012, 10:15:03 AM »
It's easy enough to blame it on their parents poor choices, but when those children grow up, they'll need to have at least a chance of making better ones.   Not going to happen unless we have some way to get basic nutrition and education services to them.
That's a very romantic notion, De Selby.  Thankfully (or not) we have many years of experience with letting the government handle increasing amounts of nutrition and education for increasing numbers of dependent children.  The reality of the situation is that the children who are brought up on government cheese are not making better choices.  The programs supposedly designed to "break the cycle of poverty" through passing out food, money or education have not - speaking generally - done a good job in doing so, have they?

I believe there is a place for charity, but if the goal is to help people improve themselves, government is quite possibly the worst way of accomplishing it.

Tallpine

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2012, 10:15:52 AM »
No, I don't, but I recognise the reality that millions of children (literally) get fed right now by the government - before cutting that off on principle Id like to see a realistic forecast for how the need gets met.

It's easy enough to blame it on their parents poor choices, but when those children grow up, they'll need to have at least a chance of making better ones.   Not going to happen unless we have some way to get basic nutrition and education services to them.

When you feed stray cats, you get a lot more of them  :facepalm:
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Scout26

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2012, 10:38:06 AM »
When you feed stray cats, you get a lot more of them  :facepalm:

I actually believe that it's "It you want more of something, have the .gov subsidize it."

And yes, if tomorrow the .gov stopped welfare, food stamps and the like (especially minimum wage), churches, private charities and the like would be more than able to pick up the slack.  And it would force those non-productive to become productive, by weeding out those that are"gaming the system".

I'll have to tell the story(ies) of the two weeks I spent homeless sometime.
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MrsSmith

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2012, 11:04:24 AM »
I honestly don't think stopping welfare checks and food stamps is going to cause any child to starve. I've known a couple single moms on food stamps and while it helped, it certainly wasn't the mainstay in keeping them alive or well-nourished.
People are going to eat. And they're going to give up other non-essentials to do so. It would be real hard for a child these days to die of starvation without teachers noticing. Not saying it couldn't happen, but teacher's these days are calling family services for damn near everything. (Remind me to tell you about the delightful six week long abuse investigation I was under for "sending" my daughter to school in a dirty shirt and shoes that were too big for her.)

There would likely be kids that slip through the cracks here and there. But the percentage would be so small, if it could even be tracked. Not that any child is expendable, but is it really worth the cost of an entire nation failing?
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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2012, 11:29:37 AM »
(Remind me to tell you about the delightful six week long abuse investigation I was under for "sending" my daughter to school in a dirty shirt and shoes that were too big for her.)

When my daughter REALLY steps out of line, wife & I STFU and don't even bother spanking.  We just take all her clothes away and leave her only her older brother's hand-me-downs.  Most of which are overlarge jeans with holes in the knees, overlarge shoes, and (formerly) white unbleached t-shirts.

You'd think we had forcibly enrolled her into The Excruciatingly Grave Sisters of the Beloved Flagellants nunnery for the week.  Usually she breaks in a couple days so we can waive the next five and give her back the pretty things she so adores.

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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2012, 12:47:30 PM »
Story time....

I'm the oldest of four boys, and we were all born and raised in Brazil. Dad is a Brazilian national, Mom is American.   My dad worked his *arse* off, but built a fuel alcohol distillery from the ground up on the family farm.   Prior to that, he worked as a mechanical engineer, taught engineering courses at the university, traveled the world as an engineer (at one point, he was fluent in four languages, and could communicate in at least three more).  We weren't wealthy, but we were definitely upper middle class.   We never wanted for anything that we truly needed, and had a lot of our wants fulfilled to.  Mom was able to be a stay at home Mom, and raise us boys.  When I was 10, the twins were born (in 1986).   In 1987, the Brazilian economy was in the toilet, and my folks made the painful decision to move to the US.

We arrived in December of '87, and for the first few months lived with family members (I remember having to lay out my "bed" every night in the living room, setting up the cushions on the floor and covering with sheets, etc.) because frankly, most of my folks savings got depleted in the move to the US.   Dad, a highly experienced mechanical engineer, couldn't find work as an engineer to save his life.   He was "over-experienced" or some other BS.   So he got work wherever he could.   Primarily, he delivered pizza's for Domino's.   Quite frequently our meals were mis-made pizzas that were left over at the store.   He also worked doing auto repairs, and really any other work he could find.   This was not enough to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table for two teenagers and two toddlers.   So Dad swallowed his pride and they applied for food stamps.   Even with that assistance, it wasn't enough for 4 boys.  We lived in a 3 bedroom apartment (yup, two boys per room).   Which looking back now, was a luxury that my parents worked their butts off to provide.  What closed the food gap for my family was the church.  There was a program put together by several of the local churches that provided food boxes once a week to families in need, based on family size, etc.   And then there was our church itself.  Not the "church" but the people of the church.  More than once, we would come back to our car after services were over to find the backseat completely filled with bags of groceries.   

Even after Dad was able to get work as an engineer, it was during a pretty tough time in the economy, and while it met our needs, it certainly didn't provide any luxuries.   So Mom worked as the receptionist/secretary at the school in our church, which allowed my brothers and I to attend the school there.  And while it wasn't as "diverse" in the numbers of courses, etc, the knowledge they did provide was *deep*.   

So why tell you all this?

Of us four boys:   I'm a dispatcher/EMT for the busiest EMS system in the state.   I had been trying to get into med school, had several interested, but things got messed up with my application, and then I got married.   I chose to do what I'm doing now instead of going to med school and possibly compromising my marriage.   We don't have any kids yet, but we're planning on it, and we've been married for 5 years.   We own a house, two vehicles that are paid off, and a lot of "toys".   Our only debt is my student loan (which now that everything else is paid off, we're going to tackle head on) and our mortgage.   We could have bought a much bigger, much newer, and more expensive house.  But we chose to set things up so that we could live strictly on my income once we have kids, so that my wife *can* be home and raise our kids (her choice, btw).  Because she saw how much of an impact that made in both our lives.   

My next younger brother, is a project manager for the low voltage side (automation and communication) for one of the largest electrical companies in the NW.   the projects he works on are anywhere from the hundreds of thousand to millions of dollars.  Just *his* portion of the jobs.  The whole jobs are sometimes up to multi-million dollars, just for the electrical work - they just won bids for a couple of different hospitals either being built or majorly renovated.  He is married, has been for 10 years, has two daughters that are polite, respectful, and intelligent.  Yes, they can be a handful at times, but they *aren't* hooligans.  They've also set themselves up so he is able to provide their needs, and his wife is also able to stay home with the girls.

The third brother is working for Verizon, and is trying to decide between continuing in the retail side and becoming a store manager, or to step into the technical side of the house.   He's been married for about 4 years, with their first child being about 18 months old, and she's incredibly smart.   His wife is also able to be a stay at home mom.  They're saving up to purchase a house.

My youngest brother has been married for about three years, he and his wife both work, but he's working on his Master's in counseling to be a child counselor.   They don't have any kids yet, and are saving up for a house. 

I would say that the common theme for us boys was quite simple.   Mom was able to be actively involved in our lives even while she was working (worked at our school).  Dad was involved, even if he was working his butt off.    He was never too busy to help us with a math problem or a science problem in our homework, or to help with Boy Scout projects.   More than once I spent hours with him under a car, tinkering on an engine, or changing a clutch.   Our parents were *involved* in our lives.  They also weren't afraid to discipline us when we got out of line (and believe me, 4 boys managed to find all sorts of ways to get out of line).   They instilled in all of us a love of learning, and to enjoy math, science, physics, chemistry, biology, hard sciences that have real world applications.   

Ultimately, they instilled in us the knowledge that in order to get anything, you have to work hard and sacrifice.   Rev kinda hit the nail on the head with a comment he made:

Quote
It is entirely possible to climb out of poverty if you are willing to work hard and make sacrifices. It is not easy. It IS a sacrifice to have books (even ones from a library) shoved under your nose at any free second, soaking up any last piece of useful information. It's a sacrifice to spend all your free time doing what you have to do to succeed, instead of what you want to do. It's a sacrifice to always make the right choices.

We could have chosen to live the "American Nightmare".  Bury ourselves in so much debt we have no hope of getting out.   Try to "keep up with the Joneses".  Even if the Joneses have had 20 years to accumulate what they currently have now.  We want it all, and we want it now, and damn the consequences.
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seeker_two

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2012, 06:27:44 PM »
AmbulanceDriver is here....all other arguments are invalid.
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2012, 07:59:36 PM »
AmbulanceDriver is here....all other arguments are invalid.

??? I's confuzled......
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seeker_two

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2012, 08:51:17 PM »
??? I's confuzled......

You is example....example that proves argument....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

De Selby

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2012, 09:35:24 PM »
You is example....example that proves argument....

Like I said before, everyone has the story about cousin Zeke who was weaned on motor oil and ended up being Donald Trump's payday lender.  That's anecdote, not evidence, and more importantly, the dynamics of your ability to compete in tough circumstances will change dramatically if millions of other people are cut off Federal aid, even if you never used it.

It's one thing to have a success story when you're one of a small percentage vying for some resource; whole different kettle of fish when millions more people are forced into that pool.

Sure, charities might take care of the gap - I'd want to see that with some certainty before abolishing all government food assistance.   Again, the point being that blaming parents for malnourished and uneducated kids doesn't address the fact that you now have a person who doesn't have the toolkit to participate in all the wholesome poverty lifting businesses out there.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Tallpine

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2012, 10:14:26 PM »
Quote
I'd want to see that with some certainty before abolishing all government food assistance. 

What you want to see is government stealing money from responsible folks to give to bums  :mad:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

cordex

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2012, 10:41:48 PM »
Like I said before, everyone has the story about cousin Zeke who was weaned on motor oil and ended up being Donald Trump's payday lender.  That's anecdote, not evidence [...]
Very true
It's one thing to have a success story when you're one of a small percentage vying for some resource; whole different kettle of fish when millions more people are forced into that pool.
Agreed.
Sure, charities might take care of the gap - I'd want to see that with some certainty before abolishing all government food assistance.   Again, the point being that blaming parents for malnourished and uneducated kids doesn't address the fact that you now have a person who doesn't have the toolkit to participate in all the wholesome poverty lifting businesses out there.
You make a valid criticism of people using anecdotes as evidence, but support your own position with nothing but vague and apocryphal feel-good pablum about giving underprivileged kids the toolkit to lift themselves out of poverty.  Let's see how successful we have been by that measure.

Federal SNAP program enrollment as a percent of population from inception to 2011.

Source: http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/SNAPsummary.htm

US poverty rates:


So, if the intent (along with that of the mess of other welfare and assistance programs at the state and federal level) is to raise people out of poverty - over generations at least, if not specific individuals - would you then agree that Federal food stamps and other aid programs have been a colossal failure based on the steadily increasing enrollment in SNAP and the steadily increasing number of "impoverished"?

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2012, 01:42:35 AM »
De Selby, I'm going to make one point here,  then probably be done...   Because I don't like to argue with the proverbial immovable object...

When I'm on a call and I hear a statement like the following, from a guy who was complaining to his buddy about how his brand new, loaded to the gills Cadillac Escalade might be getting repossessed: "Even with number seven on the way,  welfare don't pay enough!"

how am I not supposed to want to completely gut and massively overhaul the entire system?

And I'm gonna be real blunt here.   Guys like the one I just quoted? They can either get off their lazy asses and get a job, or they can starve.  Don't give me this hanky-twisting liberal bushwa about it not being their fault. Actually, it's not all their fault. They've had generations of liberal politicians telling them that they deserve a standard of living that they don't actually have to work to attain.
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De Selby

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2012, 02:49:39 AM »
Very trueAgreed.You make a valid criticism of people using anecdotes as evidence, but support your own position with nothing but vague and apocryphal feel-good pablum about giving underprivileged kids the toolkit to lift themselves out of poverty.  Let's see how successful we have been by that measure.

Federal SNAP program enrollment as a percent of population from inception to 2011.

Source: http://www.fns.usda.gov/pd/SNAPsummary.htm

US poverty rates:


So, if the intent (along with that of the mess of other welfare and assistance programs at the state and federal level) is to raise people out of poverty - over generations at least, if not specific individuals - would you then agree that Federal food stamps and other aid programs have been a colossal failure based on the steadily increasing enrollment in SNAP and the steadily increasing number of "impoverished"?

Well, increasing poverty and enrollment in food assistance would seem to go hand in hand - I doubt there's any meaningful comparison there, because factors other than nutrition drive poverty.

It isn't apocryphal or vague to state that malnutrition in children impairs brain development - I'd hope I don't need to drag out a medical study to support that claim.

It also shouldn't be necessary to point out that impaired cognitive abilities severely limit employment options in our economy.

Hence, any policy that could reduce nutrition for children needs to be heavily scrutinized before its adopted.  Otherwise, we have the grossly unfair situation of raising kids whose choices will be limited because of a food supply that had no say in creating.

Sure, it might be nice to blame that outcome on their parents or failed charities or government, but who think is morally responsible for an outcome isn't going to change it.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cordex

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2012, 09:49:00 AM »

Well, increasing poverty and enrollment in food assistance would seem to go hand in hand - I doubt there's any meaningful comparison there, because factors other than nutrition drive poverty.
You're (intentionally, I believe) missing the point.  Of course factors other than nutrition drive poverty, but your defense of the SNAP program centers around helping kids escape future poverty.  Are you entirely unaware of the strongly multi-generational nature of poverty under the current system?  That would seem to indicate that the current system is failing to accomplish its goals, wouldn't it?

You stated that the government's strategy of providing food and whatever else to impoverished families will give children the tools they need to pull themselves out of poverty.  The government has provided food (and cash, and education, and housing, and cell phones, etc., etc.) and rather than people pulling themselves out of poverty and SNAP enrollment over time decreasing, both have increased.

It isn't apocryphal or vague to state that malnutrition in children impairs brain development - I'd hope I don't need to drag out a medical study to support that claim.
I'm not arguing that.  What is apocryphal and vague is the notion that the government's welfare is doing what you claim it is.  Except in a vanishingly small percentage of cases where people manage their budget as well as can be expected but still cannot even afford basic staples, government food assistance does not encourage improved nutrition.

It also shouldn't be necessary to point out that impaired cognitive abilities severely limit employment options in our economy.
Of course not, but you have a dual failures here. 

Failure the first:  People are using the system to buy the food they would buy anyway, and using the money they save on food for non-nutritive purchases.  Thus, the benefits provided by the government are treated as fungible income and do not result in improved nutrition for children.  This leads to some of our local schools providing three meals a day to children of families on SNAP because the parents (who are given the resources to buy food, remember) are not providing adequate nutrition for their children.

Failure the second: the problem of multi-generational poverty in the US is not centrally the lack of nutrition.  Employment options are limited far more by other factors than cognitive impairment brought on by lack of sufficient nutrition.

Hence, any policy that could reduce nutrition for children needs to be heavily scrutinized before its adopted.  Otherwise, we have the grossly unfair situation of raising kids whose choices will be limited because of a food supply that had no say in creating.
I don’t believe you have shown that the current policy provides improved nutrition for children in the first place, thus negating your other points.
 
Also, as my dad was so fond of reminding me: Life is unfair.

MechAg94

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2012, 10:33:52 AM »
Sure, charities might take care of the gap - I'd want to see that with some certainty before abolishing all government food assistance.   Again, the point being that blaming parents for malnourished and uneducated kids doesn't address the fact that you now have a person who doesn't have the toolkit to participate in all the wholesome poverty lifting businesses out there.
Well, right now you have people who get welfare, free lunch programs at school and who knows what other assistance and people like you still complain about malnutrition issues. 

What you need to prove to us is how many of those people you reference are actually out there? As opposed to be gaming the system who have the ability and health to work, but don't.  You don't know how many of those people there are because govt does not and cannot differentiate between people who really need help and those that are just lazy or bums. 

Also, considering that the welfare program still eats up the vast majority of its funding in administrative costs, even if only a fraction of the returned tax money is given to charity, it will likely still be more than what makes it there now. 
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zahc

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2012, 11:06:26 AM »
In the town where I grew up, you can stand by the checkouts at Walmart and watch the procession of people, usually fat, who check out twice--once with a cart full of junk food, paid for with their Ohio card, and the other full of beer and cigarettes, which they pay for with cash. These are not edge cases, it's just the way it is; the standard strategy. It happens all day long. Then occasionally you get the guy with a cart full of nice cuts of steak, which I never buy (too expensive), all paid for with his Ohio card, while I stand in the same line with my frugal choices for my family paying out of my pocket like the biggest sucker in the world. I would probably buy cigarettes, if they weren't $7 a pack, but all MY extra money seems to be spent on taxes.  

They keep prices on things like milk jacked up and assume that their small portion of customers who pay cash will ask for a price match to the discount grocers in town. When my mom goes to the same walmart, the cashiers automatically OFFER her a price match on expensive groceries as soon as they find out she is paying cash.

The system is so wrong it's palpable, and it's perpetuated by apologists, usually with little exposure to its reality, who allow themselves to be tricked into thinking it's about feeding the hungry. It's about feeding the hungry the way gun control is about saving the children, the DMCA is about saving poor starving artists, and the war on drugs is about...I forgot what that's supposed to be about actually. The thing is, I'm a very charitable person, but the government taking my money and giving it to slobs is not charity.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 11:11:24 AM by zahc »
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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2012, 11:45:55 AM »
Like I said before, everyone has the story about cousin Zeke who was weaned on motor oil and ended up being Donald Trump's payday lender.  That's anecdote, not evidence, and more importantly, the dynamics of your ability to compete in tough circumstances will change dramatically if millions of other people are cut off Federal aid, even if you never used it.

It's one thing to have a success story when you're one of a small percentage vying for some resource; whole different kettle of fish when millions more people are forced into that pool.

Sure, charities might take care of the gap - I'd want to see that with some certainty before abolishing all government food assistance.   Again, the point being that blaming parents for malnourished and uneducated kids doesn't address the fact that you now have a person who doesn't have the toolkit to participate in all the wholesome poverty lifting businesses out there.



The evidence is in the millions of people stuck in America's poverty cycle.  There's something to be said for dying free, instead of living enslaved.
JD

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2012, 12:01:18 PM »
 ???  It must have somehow become incredibly difficult to provide children with good food since I grew up.
We just had those pesky "food groups" when I was a kid.


And America doesn't have poverty anywhere near like what some African countries have.
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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2012, 01:21:00 PM »
Well, right now you have people who get welfare, free lunch programs at school and who knows what other assistance and people like you still complain about malnutrition issues. 

What you need to prove to us is how many of those people you reference are actually out there? As opposed to be gaming the system who have the ability and health to work, but don't.  You don't know how many of those people there are because govt does not and cannot differentiate between people who really need help and those that are just lazy or bums. 

Also, considering that the welfare program still eats up the vast majority of its funding in administrative costs, even if only a fraction of the returned tax money is given to charity, it will likely still be more than what makes it there now. 

Besides that, we have far surpassed the point of Government providing necessity and government being the enabler.
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lee n. field

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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2012, 02:47:09 PM »
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Well, increasing poverty and enrollment in food assistance would seem to go hand in hand

Is that what you got out of those charts?
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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2012, 02:55:51 PM »
So it's good and right for the government to hold a gun to my head, take my money, and give it to the f***stains buying carts of food with their EBT cards and wheeling them out to their new Caddies and Lexus cars?




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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »
>It isn't apocryphal or vague to state that malnutrition in children impairs brain development<

No, it's not. However, you're assuming that the folks "surviving" on their EBT card will purchase nutritional food for their kids...
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Re: Choices Matter in Avoiding Poverty
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2012, 08:33:34 PM »
>It isn't apocryphal or vague to state that malnutrition in children impairs brain development<

No, it's not. However, you're assuming that the folks "surviving" on their EBT card will purchase nutritional food for their kids...

There are programs (being cut) that require them to do so - WIC, for example.

Cordex, I think we're talking past each other - I'm interested in seeing that people have a fair opportunity to get out of poverty, not in granting them all the money that would be required to make whatever the Feds say is not poverty.    The shifting measure and other factors involved make the direct comparison not so useful - food isn't going to get people doing well in the economy by itself.  But childhood nutrition and basic education are necessary (not sufficient) conditions of doing so.

Mech,

Notice that we are talking about cutting those programs here - my question was how many people will not be able to eat without the welfare we have?   If we can be reasonably certain charities will pick up the slack, fine, but I don't see any evidence they can.
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