USMC Orders a Bunch of 1911s

[Perd Hapley]

As much as I like love 1911s, dear Lord just buy some Glocks!

If we do that, THE TERRORISTS WIN!

[seeker_two]

That was my thought, given the requirements.

Drop in parts?  That just screams "get a Glock".

Based on the requirements, a Ruger P345 or S&W 4506 should be considered....

[brimic]

Based on the requirements, a Ruger P345 or S&W 4506 should be considered....

Blasphemy!

[Jamisjockey]

Blasphemy!

This.

Why 1911?

Most people shoot the 1911 better than other pistols, accuracy & time-wise.

1911 fits more folks' hands.

Just as reliable as a Glock, when manufactured to modern standards.

Installed knowledge base of armorers.


Now, I have nothing against Glocks, they just don't fit me as well as 1911s.  I think they are a quality weapon.

This.

Glock already has a single stack, subcompact 6rnd .45, which could be easily enlarged/elongated to meet the specifications.

Which would be a redesign and certainly cost more than just producing a line of 1911's.

Blasphemy!

Why do you hate America and my beloved Corps?

[Perd Hapley]

A coyote brown Glock? Has Glock ever made them in a color other than black, black, or black?

[Balog]

So Glock makes a single stack model to meet the Marine Corps' requirements.

What is the advantage of a single stack Glock over a 1911 again? Since they were originally brought up in this thread because they offer extra capacity.

[gunsmith]

A coyote brown Glock? Has Glock ever made them in a color other than black, black, or black?

 
I guess so

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABvb983OkhY

[lee n. field]

What is the advantage of a single stack Glock over a 1911 again? Since they were originally brought up in this thread because they offer extra capacity.

• meets the requirements of the contract
• mitigates people's bitching about the grip, somewhat
• relatively flat compact (G36) for those that want that
• one third the price per unit
  
• send your boys to a one day Glock armorer's class instead of a 3 year gunsmith school
  

It's kind of pointless to speculate.  If they want "drop in parts", 1911 isn't the way to go.  But, it seems they want 1911s.  Something will need to give way.

[lee n. field]

A coyote brown Glock? Has Glock ever made them in a color other than black, black, or black?

Yes.  "flat dark earth"

[RoadKingLarry]

True...what makes the 1911 superior to the Glock/XD/M&P design for this specific task?

BURN THE HERETIC!!!

[MechAg94]

Or split the difference and do a "stack and a half" like the M&P 45 does (or use an M&P 45).

I was thinking the M&P 45 and the Springfield XDm both have slimmer grips than the Glock. 

I think it would be interesting to see a good reliability test with Glock, a good 1911, XD, and M&P, both to see how good the newer 1911's really are and how the M&P's and XD's match up to the Glock. 

[Jamisjockey]

• meets the requirements of the contract
• mitigates people's bitching about the grip, somewhat
• relatively flat compact (G36) for those that want that
• one third the price per unit
  
• send your boys to a one day Glock armorer's class instead of a 3 year gunsmith school
  

It's kind of pointless to speculate.  If they want "drop in parts", 1911 isn't the way to go.  But, it seems they want 1911s.  Something will need to give way.

Wait. Wait. Wait.  So redesiging a compact glock into a fullsize single stack would somehow be cheaper than the 1911?  
Glock would have to retool production to produce that weaon, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.  Where do you think the cost for tooling up for a new line of glocks will be passed along?

Also, I don't think you comprehend the 3 year part.  That is not a school.   They are taking armorers from the fleet and putting them in a 3 year rotation at the Precision Weapons Shop in Quantico.  They emerge from that rotation master gunsmiths.  They also build all the USMC sniper rifles and shooting teams weapons there.


No offense, but the Marines are not the Army, AF or Navy.  Marine leaders do not take fielding weapons lightly.  I highly doubt that other weapons were not considered, and I suspect that great pains were taken to make sure the right weapon was selected.

The G21 is a great weapon and one of my favorites, even though I'm a 1911 shooter. Nothing against glocks. 

[Balog]

• meets the requirements of the contract
• mitigates people's bitching about the grip, somewhat
• relatively flat compact (G36) for those that want that

• one third the price per unit[/b]
  
• send your boys to a one day Glock armorer's class instead of a 3 year gunsmith school
  

It's kind of pointless to speculate.  If they want "drop in parts", 1911 isn't the way to go.  But, it seems they want 1911s.  Something will need to give way.

Bolded part is most likely incorrect, it would need to be an all new pistol and I guarantee they'd jack the price up since they're selling to fed.gov.

As for the "drop in" part bit... You realize they were in the .mil across all branches for many decades, and never had a problem with cobbling them together from available parts right? The "1911's need hand fitting" meme is based on the eleventy thousand companies that make them, the civilian desire for tighter tolerances etc.

[BlueStarLizzard]

As too the "why 8 when you can have 13?"

The polymer frame double stack .45's (and SOCOM has one already) are just dandy, but they weight a friggen ton. So, my question to you, is why the fart would you carry extra weight around for your secondary weapon unless you specifically were planning on using it?

And glocks have come from factory in black, desert tan, dark earth and od green. You can also get a full rainbow from a bunch of diffrent specialty shops.

[seeker_two]

Sounds like the Ruger P345 is more of a fit as the discussion proceeds....it even has its safety in the same place as the Beretta M9....the gun that soldiers have trained with for over 20 years....

[Fitz]

IIRC, the XD 45 is on the list of candidates for the M9 replacement for the Army.



Also +100000 on what Jamis said. The marines are much better about making weapon decisions than the army is. They don't adopt new stuff over proven stuff unless they have a DAMN good reason.

Hell, how long did they use the Cobra?

[roo_ster]

As too the "why 8 when you can have 13?"

The polymer frame double stack .45's (and SOCOM has one already) are just dandy, but they weight a friggen ton. So, my question to you, is why the fart would you carry extra weight around for your secondary weapon unless you specifically were planning on using it?

And glocks have come from factory in black, desert tan, dark earth and od green. You can also get a full rainbow from a bunch of diffrent specialty shops.

What BSL wrote.  Weigh darn near as much as a shorty MP5.  There was much wailing & gnashing of teeth when the MP5s were taken away.

[Jamisjockey]

IIRC, the XD 45 is on the list of candidates for the M9 replacement for the Army.



Also +100000 on what Jamis said. The marines are much better about making weapon decisions than the army is. They don't adopt new stuff over proven stuff unless they have a DAMN good reason.

Hell, how long did they use the Cobra?

*expletive deleted*it they still do brother.  AH1W super cobra is a death machine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_AH-1_SuperCobra


Only thing that I was disappointed in was the OV22 being forced into service. Yes, the Marines needed it, but a lot of good Marines died testing it before it was operationally ready.

[Scout26]

Only thing that I was disappointed in was the OV22 being forced into service. Yes, the Marines needed it, but a lot of good Marines died testing it before it was operationally ready.

That happens with all new technology.  How many people were killed developing the airplane for military service?  Not to mention once someone thought that putting them on ships was a swell idea.  The helicopter, heck even just in new types.  I remember in 1986 being terrified to get in a UH-60 because it was known as the "Crashhawk" due to all the accidents in its development and fielding.

[Jamie B]

True...what makes the 1911 superior to the Glock/XD/M&P design for this specific task?

It is a 1911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

The polymer frame double stack .45's (and SOCOM has one already) are just dandy, but they weight a friggen ton. So, my question to you, is why the fart would you carry extra weight around for your secondary weapon unless you specifically were planning on using it?

Will this meme ever die?

The Mk23 weighs 1100 grams. The 1911 weighs 1080 grams. Damn near identical. The Mk23 only becomes a heavy bastard when you strap on the massive suppressor and ancient laser module.

[brimic]

The Mk23 weighs 1100 grams. The 1911 weighs 1080 grams. Damn near identical. The Mk23 only becomes a heavy bastard when you strap on the massive suppressor and ancient laser module.

The MK23 is undeniably a better pistol than the colt, but it also costs twice as much.

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

The MK23 is undeniably a better pistol than the colt, but it also costs twice as much.

And takes up a massive amount of real estate, and takes big hands to fire... certain missions require a concealed pistol on your person, and I don't think the 23 can do that too well.

Fact is, the Marines wanted a 1911. This is why only 1911 manufacturers competed in the trials. This was what they were looking for, and they got it.

[brimic]

And takes up a massive amount of real estate, and takes big hands to fire... certain missions require a concealed pistol on your person, and I don't think the 23 can do that too well.

That's because it requires manly teutonic hands.

I've shot one once and really liked it, but yeah, its not really practical for anything unless you are a 1331 operator.

[SADShooter]

I recognize and accept most of the arguments in favor of a "modern" off-the-shelf sidearm design. So if the decision were purely nostalgic I'd take issue with it. However, I have more confidence in my ability to score rapid accurate hits, especially at extreme pistol ranges, with a 1911 than with any other platform. I'm inclined to think similar reasoning may apply for the Marines who expect to actually use the weapons in combat.