Marine has life destroyed by clerical error

[Jamisjockey]

Always hard to judge the impression one is making on the internet, isn't it?

Like I said, I'm not bitter but a lot of folks have turned their service in the Corps into a religious experience and it frustrates me. It's unfortunate that voicing the demonstrably true point that the Corps is imperfect, and that the bureaucracy IS the Corps gets perceived as hostile or resentful.

Which means we have differing experiences of our time.  I hold my time in very high regard, while acknoweldging it wasn't perfect.

[Balog]

Which means we have differing experiences of our time.  I hold my time in very high regard, while acknoweldging it wasn't perfect.

Just to be clear, none of that was aimed at you JJ. But I'm sure we both know plenty of folks who seem to derive the meaning in their life from their enlistment.

[Fitz]

I, like Balog, get irritated at the assumption that because I recognize the military has a ton of problems, that I'm either bitter, a shitbag, or both. It's very common, and irksome.

I put it this way to folks.

I love soldiers, I love being a soldier. I love serving my country.

As an institution, I very much dislike the Army.

[HeroHog]

Military service can be a very mixed bag... I volunteered at the end of Nam into the USN and had a horrendous duty station out of "C" school. My next duty station was fine although my life was hell due to a bad choice for a wife (PS: If you can take her from someone, someone can take her from YOU!).

In the end, I mustered out during the reserve part of my service contract with an Honorable/Medical discharge shortly after telling the Unit Commander that "I wasn't coming back to his unit without someone bleeding and I didn't care if it was me!" due to my disability and the flack I was getting for not working withing my rating when there was nothing for me to do in the first place and I was physically incapable of doing anything anyway! (PPS: I was a Diesel Mechanic stationed at a land-locked office complex with NO shop of any kind or any diesels to work on!!!)

You might think I am bitter toward the Navy but I am actually quite proud to have served and have recommended the service to some friends and relatives as I realize that MY experiences are not the same as everyone else's and that there are cruddy duty stations and situations in ALL walks of life.

[BobR]

but a lot of folks have turned their military service in the Corps into a religious experience

You have said a mouthful there. I work as an RN in a VA hospital and I see it every day.

bob

[roo_ster]

My thoughts echo those of many here.

I suspect the primary problem with .mill bureaucracy is the same problem we see in people and organizations that repeatedly do what they know is wrong: lack of consequences for their actions.

One way to levy consequences is against the individual perpetrator.  Maybe I'll examine that later.

Another is to levy consequences on the organization.  The best way to do this would be to switch over to truly 100% voluntary, 100% of the time service. 

Meaning, if what occurred at his unit was not what his recruiter told him, he has the option of leaving the service with no legal repercussions.  Or, he gets to his unit and things are as rough as they told him they were going to be and he digs it...but some new incompetent commander takes over and either is incompetent or insists on elevating bullshit over training...goodbye, dumbazz service. It sure would reduce the time it takes to suss out a bad-apple leader.

Because if the way .mil life is made tolerable is good leadership that crashes into the bureaucratic trolls and wrests by main force what his men are due, the way .mil life is made intolerable is incompetent or perverse leadership in the NCO & O ranks that does not similarly clash with the trolls or (worse) adds to the burden.

I figure if the Germans could destroy the world's greatest empire (at the time) with armies of men who stayed with their leaders on a voluntary basis, maybe we could make it work, too.

[Jamisjockey]

My thoughts echo those of many here.

I suspect the primary problem with .mill bureaucracy is the same problem we see in people and organizations that repeatedly do what they know is wrong: lack of consequences for their actions.

One way to levy consequences is against the individual perpetrator.  Maybe I'll examine that later.

Another is to levy consequences on the organization.  The best way to do this would be to switch over to truly 100% voluntary, 100% of the time service. 

Meaning, if what occurred at his unit was not what his recruiter told him, he has the option of leaving the service with no legal repercussions.  Or, he gets to his unit and things are as rough as they told him they were going to be and he digs it...but some new incompetent commander takes over and either is incompetent or insists on elevating bullshit over training...goodbye, dumbazz service. It sure would reduce the time it takes to suss out a bad-apple leader.

Because if the way .mil life is made tolerable is good leadership that crashes into the bureaucratic trolls and wrests by main force what his men are due, the way .mil life is made intolerable is incompetent or perverse leadership in the NCO & O ranks that does not similarly clash with the trolls or (worse) adds to the burden.

I figure if the Germans could destroy the world's greatest empire (at the time) with armies of men who stayed with their leaders on a voluntary basis, maybe we could make it work, too.

I would argue we should have a quasi-mercenary military.  Members should be paid way more.  The military command should have the option of declining conflicts (You want to go to war where again? Yeah....no.).  And members should have the option of leaving after a very minimal initial period.  Only highly technical jobs should include a longer service contract to cover the expense of training.

One way to levy consequences is against the individual perpetrator.  Maybe I'll examine that later.

No individual bureaucrat, regardless of governmental branch, should be beyond reproach.
Dumbass clerk who misfiles you as AWOL when you're HD....you should be able to individually sue that person.

[Hawkmoon]

In the end, I mustered out during the reserve part of my service contract with an Honorable/Medical discharge shortly after telling the Unit Commander that "I wasn't coming back to his unit without someone bleeding and I didn't care if it was me!" due to my disability and the flack I was getting for not working withing my rating when there was nothing for me to do in the first place and I was physically incapable of doing anything anyway! (PPS: I was a Diesel Mechanic stationed at a land-locked office complex with NO shop of any kind or any diesels to work on!!!)

Ah ... so you were one of the recent group who went in after they phased out the M203A4X15 Typewriter, Manual, Diesel-Augmented (English)? Tsk, tsk ... you missed a real gem.

[roo_ster]

I would argue we should have a quasi-mercenary military.  Members should be paid way more.  The military command should have the option of declining conflicts (You want to go to war where again? Yeah....no.).  And members should have the option of leaving after a very minimal initial period.  Only highly technical jobs should include a longer service contract to cover the expense of training.

Maybe my idea would morph into your design over time.

No individual bureaucrat, regardless of governmental branch, should be beyond reproach.
Dumbass clerk who misfiles you as AWOL when you're HD....you should be able to individually sue that person.

No argument, here.  But the pain must be felt throughout the organization.

[vaskidmark]

I figure if the Germans could destroy the world's greatest empire (at the time) with armies of men who stayed with their leaders on a voluntary basis, maybe we could make it work, too.

The differences are two - (1) Der Chermans started with a country that the soldaten believed in.  OK, so it turned out it was the "My country, far right or wrong" kind of belief, but believe in it they did. (2) The military had for quite a long time been separated from the rest of society.  The General Staff wielded a tremendous amount of influence (and control) over the civil government.  (Surpassed only by 1932-1945 Japan  --  1933-1945 Germany is not counted as there was no effective civil government for the military to influence.)

I'm not sure you could fill the ranks with all skinheads, or all NBPP, or any other group/combinations of groups, and get them to believe in the country like the Imperial German Army soldier believed in his country.  The two cultures are too different, and we started out from the position of not believing in the country (as represented by its civil government) in the first place.

I'm not sure you could get Congress to pay attention to anyone but themselves long enough for someone else to exert influence over them on a systemic level.  Which I guess proves that the condition is a feature as opposed to being a bug?

stay safe.

[roo_ster]

The differences are two - (1) Der Chermans started with a country that the soldaten believed in.  OK, so it turned out it was the "My country, far right or wrong" kind of belief, but believe in it they did. (2) The military had for quite a long time been separated from the rest of society.  The General Staff wielded a tremendous amount of influence (and control) over the civil government.  (Surpassed only by 1932-1945 Japan  --  1933-1945 Germany is not counted as there was no effective civil government for the military to influence.)

I'm not sure you could fill the ranks with all skinheads, or all NBPP, or any other group/combinations of groups, and get them to believe in the country like the Imperial German Army soldier believed in his country.  The two cultures are too different, and we started out from the position of not believing in the country (as represented by its civil government) in the first place.

I'm not sure you could get Congress to pay attention to anyone but themselves long enough for someone else to exert influence over them on a systemic level.  Which I guess proves that the condition is a feature as opposed to being a bug?

stay safe.

I was referring to the Roman Empire. 

[RoadKingLarry]

I was referring to the Roman Empire. 

DOH!

[roo_ster]

DOH!

On second thought, it could be argued that the Germans are partially responsible for busting up the Brit Empire, too.  But the examples still works better for the Romans.

[vaskidmark]

I was referring to the Roman Empire. 

Well, considering just how many times the Germans have destroyed "the world's greatest empire (at the time)" it would have helped to give a little notice of at least the century you were thinking about.

And as for "with armies of men who stayed with their leaders on a voluntary basis" - you might consider that the condition applies to both sides when looking at the fall of the Roman Empire - and a few subsequent empires the Germans were involved in toppling/crumbling, as well as doing the same to their own empires several times.

Them Germans is bad MFs no matter how you slice it.

stay safe.

[seeker_two]

Maybe we should have the Hessians fight all our wars....

[Perd Hapley]

Ah ... so you were one of the recent group who went in after they phased out the M203A4X15 Typewriter, Manual, Diesel-Augmented (English)? Tsk, tsk ... you missed a real gem.

Likes this.