Author Topic: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle  (Read 8556 times)

Ben

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The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« on: August 01, 2012, 10:27:42 AM »
This is interesting. It's MA, so my first thought was, "commie pinko govt telling people what to do". As I read the story though, it actually sounds fair. Maybe those of you with more experience working on modern cars can weigh in.

I haven't done major work on an engine since car computers have become the norm. Back then I suppose any mechanic who could order a part could fix the vehicle with nothing more than a Chilton manual. If I understand the story correctly, I can completely see where manufacturers holding back diagnosis software would be unfair to both independent mechanics and the vehicle owners themselves. Certainly auto manufacturers (excepting GM I suppose) are private entities and can market things as they please, but once I pay $30K for one of their vehicles, it becomes mine and I should be able to do whatever I want with it, including fixing stuff myself.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/08/01/mass-lawmakers-approve-right-to-repair-bill/?intcmp=features
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geronimotwo

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2012, 10:56:52 AM »

Quote
The fight over the repair legislation has been one of the most heavily-lobbied issues on Beacon Hill over the past several years. It was expected that millions would be spent by groups campaigning for and against the measure.

i guess we can thank the auto industry for helping the economy on more than one front.

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Jamie B

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2012, 11:25:37 AM »
Tis issue was touched briefly whan Toyota was having their acceleration issues.

In order to investigate the issue, the NHTSA requested the proprietary software information from TMC.
TMC (Toyota Motor Corp) initially hedged, but complied with the request.

There is also similar issues affecting guys who 'super tune' their vehicles with an aftermarket re-programmer, or add a supercharger and reprogram the ECU.
Seems that some of these guys were over boosting their engines, breaking them, then removing the speed parts and erasing the history from their controllers.
They then made warranty claims from the local dealer!
The OEMs started locking down the computer controllers in order to stop what they called 'false' warranty claims.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 02:24:39 PM by Jamie B »
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2012, 01:07:52 PM »
at what point will a ipod touch or an apple TV (99 bucks) have enough processing power to run the vehicles power management system?
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roo_ster

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 01:11:38 PM »
There is some similar rule in the EU requiring repair manuals & such be made available.

Regards,

roo_ster

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bedlamite

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 01:21:40 PM »
at what point will a ipod touch or an apple TV (99 bucks) have enough processing power to run the vehicles power management system?


They already do, Megasquirt uses the MC9S12 to control fuel and spark.
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Nick1911

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 01:43:56 PM »
at what point will a ipod touch or an apple TV (99 bucks) have enough processing power to run the vehicles power management system?



A long time ago.

Software that comes with a car is closed source.  Manufacturers shouldn't have to provide details about the code, hardware interfaces or any other part of the implementation any more then Microsoft should have to provide API documentation and source code when I buy a new Dell.

zahc

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 01:47:57 PM »
If the NHTSA and DOT wanted to be actually useful and effective, they would require all software, schematics, and microcode on any vehicle to be publicly audit-able and enforce standards or mandate formats that can be verified by cryptographic hash, so there's no shenanigans. But politicians do not understand computers and they think they work by magic, so the area of software is pretty much anarchy.

It's a similar situation with medical devices which are supposedly regulated by the FDA. The FDA mandates all these extreme tests for safety on medical devices, but as far as I can tell, they don't care if the software development is farmed out on rent-a-coder.com, so we end up with pacemakers and insulin pumps that can be hacked by any kid with an Android phone and bluetooth.
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AJ Dual

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2012, 02:21:07 PM »


A long time ago.

Software that comes with a car is closed source.  Manufacturers shouldn't have to provide details about the code, hardware interfaces or any other part of the implementation any more then Microsoft should have to provide API documentation and source code when I buy a new Dell.

I don't drive Microsoft Windows down the freeway at 65mph with my children inside it.  =|
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Ben

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 02:33:39 PM »
I don't drive Microsoft Windows down the freeway at 65mph with my children inside it.  =|

Also doesn't Windows actually state in the license agreement that you don't "own" it and are actually just paying to use it? I own my car.

Again, I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of melding motors and computers, and exactly what these current software access restrictions mean or don't mean. Jamie does bring up a good point about people ripping off the manufacturer and dealers, and that's not right. But if the current way things work is that they limit your, or your independent mechanic's ability to repair the vehicle you own, that's not right either. I can understand limiting access to source code, but not to the diagnostic software itself.

As a for instance, places I've been looking at in Idaho are at least 100 miles from the nearest Ford dealer. Would I be forced to drive that long distance for certain repairs versus taking my truck in to the local mechanic? Similarly, Isuzu stopped making my Trooper in the US around 2002. If certain diagnostic software is proprietary AND required to make a particular repair, and Isuzu doesn't have any dealerships in my state let alone my city, how am I supposed to get my vehicle repaired?
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zahc

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2012, 03:02:44 PM »
Quote
If certain diagnostic software is proprietary AND required to make a particular repair, and Isuzu doesn't have any dealerships in my state let alone my city, how am I supposed to get my vehicle repaired?

Now you are beginning to understand.
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Scout26

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2012, 03:24:15 PM »
It's a similar situation with medical devices which are supposedly regulated by the FDA. The FDA mandates all these extreme tests for safety on medical devices, but as far as I can tell, they don't care if the software development is farmed out on rent-a-coder.com, so we end up with pacemakers and insulin pumps that can be hacked by any kid with an Android phone and bluetooth.

Yes, but I don't hook up my Dialysis machine to the internet....
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 09:18:38 PM by scout26 »
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Nick1911

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2012, 03:41:29 PM »
Meh.

I'm against forcing the auto makers to do much of anything.  If this becomes a serious problem, the market will fix it - proprietary software makes the cost of ownership go up, fewer people buy that brand, brand goes under.  Isn't that how the free market is suppose to work?

Further, I don't understand how proprietary software could be required to make a diagnostic/repair.  Every interface between mechanical car and computer is either a sensor or an actuator.  And the test procedures for these sensors and actuator are already listed in the repair manuals, which I'll note are generally aftermarket products as well. [Should manufactures be required to publish their factory manuals?  Why?  And why not before now?] 

To me, this looks like an attitude I generally see in older people.  "Wait, I need an o-sill-er-scope to test this part?  I don't know how to do that!"  Yea, the tech is changing.  And that means the technicians will need to get new training so they can understand electronic systems.  It's the future!  Deal with it.  No, you can't fix a car with a socket set and a timing light anymore - you *need* electronic test equipment; but it's already commercially available – oscilloscopes, multimeters, probably eventually logic analysers.  Hell, we already have a standarized diagnostic interface that is mandated by law - OBDII; that dumps out of what the engine computer thinks is wrong. 

In my mind, this is about technicians being butt-hurt that they have to learn new skill sets and acquire new tooling, and would much prefer if the government forced manufactures to provide a no-sharp-corners way in.  I mean really – do you expect to find a schematic when you take the cover off your LCD TV?  Should Apple have to provide a way for non-factory techs to get to the diagnostics console of an iPhone?

Sorry, forcing companies to do things at gunpoint doesn't make the world a freer place.  I don't support it.

Harold Tuttle

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Marnoot

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2012, 04:10:39 PM »
There are repairs that only dealers can do
Further, I don't understand how proprietary software could be required to make a diagnostic/repair.

My 2001 Nissan Maxima has to be connected to a proprietary dealer-only computer in order to swap out the air-flow meter with a new one. I replaced the sensor myself, but for the car's computer to accept it it had to be told to do so by their computer. It also had to be taken to the dealer after having a pre-cat replaced in order for the car to "accept" the new cat, again by connecting it to said proprietary dealer-only computer. None of this was something that could be done with OBDII equipment, which I have.

Diagnosis of sensors themselves can certainly be done with equipment like oscilloscopes and such, but some things can't be done without talking to parts of the car's computer that aren't involved with OBDII, and thus have to be connected to dealer computers. Just to swap out a $30 sensor, I have to take it to a dealer and pay $75 for them to plug in a cable and say [Y]es to the computer, which I can't do by myself due to it being in the proprietary part of the system.

Nick1911

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2012, 04:32:25 PM »
There are repairs that only dealers can do
My 2001 Nissan Maxima has to be connected to a proprietary dealer-only computer in order to swap out the air-flow meter with a new one. I replaced the sensor myself, but for the car's computer to accept it it had to be told to do so by their computer. It also had to be taken to the dealer after having a pre-cat replaced in order for the car to "accept" the new cat, again by connecting it to said proprietary dealer-only computer. None of this was something that could be done with OBDII equipment, which I have.

Diagnosis of sensors themselves can certainly be done with equipment like oscilloscopes and such, but some things can't be done without talking to parts of the car's computer that aren't involved with OBDII, and thus have to be connected to dealer computers. Just to swap out a $30 sensor, I have to take it to a dealer and pay $75 for them to plug in a cable and say [Y]es to the computer, which I can't do by myself due to it being in the proprietary part of the system.

And yet, even something this specific has been reverse engineered and mass manufactured aftermarket. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Consult-ECU-Diagnostic-Interface-RT-Fault-Code-/190585306316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c5fc4fccc

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2012, 04:35:24 PM »
connecter is easy  you need the software
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

dogmush

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2012, 04:38:04 PM »
There are repairs that only dealers can do
My 2001 Nissan Maxima has to be connected to a proprietary dealer-only computer in order to swap out the air-flow meter with a new one. I replaced the sensor myself, but for the car's computer to accept it it had to be told to do so by their computer. It also had to be taken to the dealer after having a pre-cat replaced in order for the car to "accept" the new cat, again by connecting it to said proprietary dealer-only computer. None of this was something that could be done with OBDII equipment, which I have.

Diagnosis of sensors themselves can certainly be done with equipment like oscilloscopes and such, but some things can't be done without talking to parts of the car's computer that aren't involved with OBDII, and thus have to be connected to dealer computers. Just to swap out a $30 sensor, I have to take it to a dealer and pay $75 for them to plug in a cable and say [Y]es to the computer, which I can't do by myself due to it being in the proprietary part of the system.

That sucks, and would make me not buy that car, but doesn't rise to the "needs legislation" level.

ETA: Not for nothing, but 10 min on the net has taught me that the early 2000 maxima's had maf issues, and Nissan's fix was to swap out for a compleatly different unit with different voltage paramaters. Hence the ecu reflash. So just switching the sensor doesn't require a reflash. There's a tsb on it.

And that conforms with my experiance working on (new) cars. Repairs rarely require more then an obd ii scanner and a dmm. Every once in a long while an o-scope. MODIFICATIONS often need more involved software. Although the aftermarket is pretty solid there too.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 04:50:55 PM by dogmush »

Nick1911

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2012, 04:55:04 PM »
i don't read either of those doing more than my 50 buck reader and software will do  i don't see them being able to do what marnoot needed done.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Nick1911

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2012, 04:59:22 PM »
i don't read either of those doing more than my 50 buck reader and software will do  i don't see them being able to do what marnoot needed done.

*raises one eyebrow*

dogmush

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2012, 05:11:26 PM »
i don't read either of those doing more than my 50 buck reader and software will do  i don't see them being able to do what marnoot needed done.

Again, Marnoot had a TSB applied. That means NISSAN decided the cars needed to be changed, and wrote new software for them. Of course you have to go to Nissan to get Nissan's new software.

Marnoot

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2012, 05:20:20 PM »
I believe Consult is the proprietary system I was talking about. So if Conzult, etc. can do all the things that Consult can, then it would fill the need. I'm also not necessarily saying that "there oughta be a law!". More just general grumbling about how the manufacturers are running things.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2012, 05:24:28 PM »


    What is NISSAN's consult and how does it work ?

    The NISSAN Consult is a hand held computerised diagnostic tool designed to communicate
    directly with the electronic control units (ECU's) in the vehicle.
    Connection to ANY control unit is through a 'Diagnostic Data Link' (DDL) provided in the vehicle.

    NISSAN Consult is designed to perform 3 basic functions (as follows);
    ▫ display the status of the input and output signals read at the control unit (ECU)
    ▫ read the conclusions of the electronic systems Self Diagnostics (error log) and display the name of the failed circuit.
    ▫ instructs the control unit to modify signals of certain sensors and actuators, thereby changing operating conditions
    to confirm diagnosis. (not available for all systems)

   

    What is a Conzult and how does it work ?

    the ConZult is an application that was originally developed for the late model 300ZX (Z32).
    It is basically a PC-version of the Nissan Consult I and offers the same
    functionality plus extra features that are not possible with the Nissan consult.
    Some of these functions are:
    ▫ realtime monitoring of every sensor in the car.
    ▫ (temporarily) adjustment of fuel and timing maps, for tuning purposes.
    ▫ manual operation of solenoids and relays
    ▫ checking and erasing DTC error-codes
    ▫ recording, analyzing and replaying sensor and solenoid data

    Most of all the ConZult is an indispensable diagnostic tool, which can help you in problem determination.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

AJ Dual

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Re: The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2012, 05:36:12 PM »
I do admit, I would be okay with some sort of compromise where vehicle source code and diagnostics are proprietary during the time a vehicle is under warranty. The cases where guys who "chip" their cars and then blow the engine and then restore factory firmware and wipe the codes, I can respect. Engine and transmission replacements cost thousands of dollars. I also feel for Ben's example where there's no dealer for over 100 miles... but I bet there's already case-law about other patented information or I.P. that shoots the "distance" argument down.

The issue of the same code being used in multiple vehicle model years could be addressed semi-easily with software keys etc. and the company web page/portal IMO.
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