The "Right to Repair" Your Vehicle

[Monkeyleg]

I recall Volvo a few years back issuing proprietary software for their cars. The diagnostic software was $10,000, and was applicable only to one year and one model. If you wanted to be able to repair all models of Volvo's, you had to fork over serious cash. That effectively shut out non-dealer shops, not to mention home mechanics.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

lots of compamies will freeze you out like that  dewalt does it to repair shops that sell tools too   never will buy dewalt again

[roo_ster]

lots of compamies will freeze you out like that  dewalt does it to repair shops that sell tools too   never will buy dewalt again

Don;t you mean "Black & Decker?"

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

yea   local repair shop bought pallets of tools at discount offered em at great prices lows and home depot complained and dewalt said they were gonna jerk his authorized service center status   put a good guy outa business and hes was a heck of a repair guy

[Tallpine]

When my 1976 GMC starts running rough, I put in a new set of spark plugs, plug wires, and/or cap and rotor 

It needs a new cap and rotor right now I think, but only when it rains a lot.  Once you get it warmed up and dried out, it runs fine. 

I don't even need a timing light for it.  I set it by ear and it runs better than setting it to "spec" with the timing light 

[dogmush]

I don't even need a timing light for it.  I set it by ear and it runs better than setting it to "spec" with the timing light 

Worn timing chain.

No offense to anyone in this thread, but i love it when folks start waxing nostalgic over how awesome and uncomplcated to work on older cars are. The level of self delusion needed to maintain that belief is amazing.

I'll take computers to work on any day rather then spend a weekend tuning and syncing some side draft webers in the hopes of getting a blazing 160hp out of a straight 6.

[Tallpine]

...I'll take computers to work on any day rather then spend a weekend tuning and syncing some side draft webers in the hopes of getting a blazing 160hp out of a straight 6.

What the hell is that in - a Rolls-Canardly ?   


(yeah, it's so much easier to drain and drop a 40 gallon fuel tank than it is to take two bolts out of the side of the engine  )

[lee n. field]

I don't drive Microsoft Windows down the freeway at 65mph with my children inside it. 

I get this mental picture: 20 LY and 2 centuries of cold sleep time away from home, your life support blue screens with a cryptic "IRQL-LESS-THAN-OR-EQUAL blah blah blah" error....

[Hawkmoon]

A long time ago.

Software that comes with a car is closed source.  Manufacturers shouldn't have to provide details about the code, hardware interfaces or any other part of the implementation any more then Microsoft should have to provide API documentation and source code when I buy a new Dell.

Perhaps not the source code for how the diagnostics are generated, but the whole point of mandating a universal data port for OBD-II in 1996 was to make access to on-board diagnostic codes available to anyone who wanted or needed to work on the vehicle. How the manufacturers generate their codes is up to them, but they should not be allowed to have two levels of codes -- a low level for the end users (car owners) and independent shops, and a much higher level for dealership shops. Allowing dual level diagnostics takes us right back to Microsoft coding special functions into Windows that their own programmers were able to take advantage of but that competing software companies (such as WordPerfect) couldn't use because they didn't know they existed.

[Hawkmoon]

Worn timing chain.

No offense to anyone in this thread, but i love it when folks start waxing nostalgic over how awesome and uncomplcated to work on older cars are. The level of self delusion needed to maintain that belief is amazing.

I'll take computers to work on any day rather then spend a weekend tuning and syncing some side draft webers in the hopes of getting a blazing 160hp out of a straight 6.

Self delusion my posterior.

I just went through "the routine" with my wife's 2000 Jeep Cherokee. One day it just started running rough ... VERY rough, as in feeling like it was running on four or five out the six cylinders. So I plugged in the OBD-II scanner and, lo and behold, it confirmed: Code P0306 ... which, when looked up, is "Misfire cylinder #6."

So WHY is it misfiring on cylinder #6? Well, of course, the scanner either doesn't know or isn't telling, so we resort to basics: An infernal combustion engine requires three things -- fuel, air, and a source of ignition. First guess -- getting to the spark plugs on this thing is a bear because of the coil-on-rail ignition system, so the original spark plugs had over 90,000 miles on them. So I changed the spark plugs. No joy.

A fellow member of an on-line Jeep club is a Jeep dealership tech. He produced a TSB that said the symptoms I had result when an exhaust valve gets carboned up and won't close completely. Solution: Top engine cleaner, followed by running it at high RPMs. Okay, three cans of top engine cleaner later, it won't run at high RPM because it's still misfiring and goes into "limp home mode" when it hits 2800 RPM.

That leaves injectors, and coil (of which there are three, but solidly mounted on a single -- and expensive -- rail assembly. A friend had a complete injector rail from the same year Jeep engine, so we swapped out the #6 injector. Nope -- no joy.

So the only thing left was the coil rail. $125 later, all was well. Electronic, computerized diagnostics didn't help a bit. And if there had been a conventional coil with spark plug wires, the new coil would have cost a lot less and it would tave take about one -quarter of the time to replace it.

Which helps explain why I still have and drive my 1988 Cherokee ...

[dogmush]

What the hell is that in - a Rolls-Canardly ?   

240Z, But in that car's defense they weren't stock Carbs.  The stock.......Hitachi's I think, were a little easiert to keep running, but still a pain to sync.

Self delusion my posterior.

I just went through "the routine" with my wife's 2000 Jeep Cherokee. One day it just started running rough ... VERY rough, as in feeling like it was running on four or five out the six cylinders. So I plugged in the OBD-II scanner and, lo and behold, it confirmed: Code P0306 ... which, when looked up, is "Misfire cylinder #6."
....
So the only thing left was the coil rail. $125 later, all was well. Electronic, computerized diagnostics didn't help a bit. And if there had been a conventional coil with spark plug wires, the new coil would have cost a lot less and it would tave take about one -quarter of the time to replace it.

Not for nothing, but "Ur doin it rong".  Misfire code? Ignition problem, spark plug first, then coil output (see aforementioned DMM). problem solved.  The diagnostics would have been fine had you used them properly.


Look, I've spent my entire professional life, and most of my teen years wrenching on a variety of different cars and boats.  Both gas and diesel. Classic 50's and 60's to brand spanking new.  I will agree that modern diagnostics takes a different skillset as well as toolkit, but the cars are vastly superior in every measurable metric.  It is frustrating when the skills you used 20-30 years ago don't work anymore but the issue is your skillset not the tech.  Which is not to say don't work on old cars.  If you like that have at it, I still do. The delusion that I mentioned, and was so quickly shown, is that computers are useless, or make things worse, because you don't use them correctly.

Back to the OP. 

I STRONGLY suspect the propratary code being talked about here isn't diagnostic software, but rather the actual engine managment code.  Certainly it is in Marnoot's example.  And I can understand why manufacturers, in a competitive buisness don't want to hand out the software the details how their engine runs.  And 99.9% of the time you don't need that software to fix it. 

[White Horseradish]

I don't know the legal details. Does the OBDII standard apply to things other than engine? My friend could not get any independent mechanic to work on his Kia when the airbag light went on. He also couldn't get anyone besides the Kia dealer to check out his transmission.

There is a ridiculous number of computer controlled things in cars today. My parents' mid-90s Caravan has a separate computer module just to control lights and door locks, and that's pretty common.

[Tallpine]

240Z

One of them furrin cars 


I don't think that there's anything much simpler to keep running than an old Chevy straight six pickup.  Too bad mine is a 350 v8, but it's still pretty simple.

I'm not in the business of fixing vehicles for a living.

I do know that when our daughter had her Subaru, nobody except a dealer seemed to be able to read the fault codes.  Then she got a Toyota van that was nothing but problems. :(

[Monkeyleg]

dogmush, the tradeoff is reliability versus simplicity and cost. If your points-and-condenser car didn't start, there weren't too many things to look at. The downside is that the cars had problems far more often than do the black box models of today.

The downside to today's cars is that the black boxes can be expensive, and that more parts have black boxes than they did even 15-20 years ago. For example, alternators used to be $50 for rebuilt units. Now they're $200 or more.

[Hawkmoon]

The downside to today's cars is that the black boxes can be expensive, and that more parts have black boxes than they did even 15-20 years ago. For example, alternators used to be $50 for rebuilt units. Now they're $200 or more.

What's an "alternator"?

My '46 Hudson pickup had a generator. It had replaceable bushings, and replaceable brushes. In fact, I think I still have a box of bronze generator bushings in the basement. IIRC the entire vehicle had three fuses. The old, cloth-insulated wiring was shot when I bought the truck, so I rewired it. I think it took me three nights to completely replace the entire wiring harness. With today's vehicles, it'll take three days to find the starter relay. And what's up with using a relay to control a solenoid? 

[Tallpine]

what's up with using a relay to control a solenoid?

Whoa!  Need to route that circuit through some computer logic first 

[drewtam]

I STRONGLY suspect the propratary code being talked about here isn't diagnostic software, but rather the actual engine managment code.  Certainly it is in Marnoot's example.  And I can understand why manufacturers, in a competitive buisness don't want to hand out the software the details how their engine runs.  And 99.9% of the time you don't need that software to fix it.  

I strongly suspect its the interface and diagnostic controls.

OBD just requires passing a code that something is wrong. The OEM can add all sorts of additional diagnostic tools to the vehicle software.

For diagnostic example, OBD can say there is a misfire on #6 cylinder. Regulation met.
OEM diagnostics might be able to do special ring back delay tests on the 'plug and injector, combined with fuel rail pressure behavior during injection to help pinpoint the issue. Dealer advantage.


For interface example, there might be a glitch in the shift control software. The fix might be a transmission reflash for the shift tune. Doesn't  matter if you have the flash file if you can't interface with the PCM in a way it accepts.