What Happened to America's Dog?

[zxcvbob]

co2 fire extinguisher or stinger rounds

Stingers?  You mean the CCI .22LR varmint ammo?

[BlueStarLizzard]

i had a husky lab mix female that was very dog aggresive. she tied up with a rhodesian ridgeback. the stinger rounds made em both haul butt. i was too close broke their skin

The problem with that is we're dealing with breeding and showing dogs. First priority is (obviously) getting the fight stopped and the instigators seperated without injury, but the other priority is getting the fight stopped and seperated before the injuries start getting to the point of going to leave obvious scars. Luckly, Anatolians are pretty fuzzy, so most dings don't show, and, technically, it's not supposed to count against them (it's in the standard, they are working dogs, after all, it's expected they might get a bit banged up sometimes) but face, legs and ears, it just doesn't look nice and people get fussy about it.
A way to stop it early, and be able to seperate them before it got really nasty without hurting them in the process would be nice.
The only thing is, something like that could also escalate it.The water hose just pisses most of them off more (I've tried spraying them to stop fence fights, doesn't work. They just get louder   )
These darn dogs, they don't go at it all that often, usually they work it out with a little tussle and everyones happy again, but every once in a blue moon, somebody gets pissed off and the other one decides to not back down. And once they get to that point, man, it's hell to get them off each other. They have a pain tolerance that's insane and, once they're fixated, you have to literally pry them off.
Scares the bejesus out of me.

[seeker_two]

Before I got Bulldog, we had a neighbor's poorly-trained pit that wandered in our yard & threatened our Yorkie-Poodle mix. BB's from my Red Ryder didn't faze it....but a round or two of Colibris through a bolt-action  .22lr seemed to convince his butt that it was time to leave. He didn't come back while I was around.

Later, he did attack our Yorkie. Our dog survived & healed. Next time I saw that pit on my property, I may have gotten my Colibris and my Velocitors mixed up....

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Stingers?  You mean the CCI .22LR varmint ammo?

no  plastic buckshot  in a weak tree hugging moment i got em for black bear

[lupinus]

Sad for the girl. Ten to one she probably did the stupidest thing she could think of and, like a lot of people who get injured in a dog fight, got between the dogs and/or tried to grab and separate by the collars. In the middle of a fight the dog doesn't know the difference between another dog and a person, it's in survival kill something mode.

A way to stop it early, and be able to seperate them before it got really nasty without hurting them in the process would be nice.p

Safest and most effective way I've always understood from a few rottie and GSD breeder friends is to wheelbarrow the dogs.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Sad for the girl. Ten to one she probably did the stupidest thing she could think of and, like a lot of people who get injured in a dog fight, got between the dogs and/or tried to grab and separate by the collars. In the middle of a fight the dog doesn't know the difference between another dog and a person, it's in survival kill something mode.
Safest and most effective way I've always understood from a few rottie and GSD breeder friends is to wheelbarrow the dogs.

We grab tails and drag. Unfortunatly, it works best when you have one person for each tail involved. I've grabbing tail and started dragging and ended up on one side of a monkey in the middle situations many times.
 

The disturbing part is when you go from the one dragging to the one being dragged. 

[grislyatoms]

Any dog not socialized properly is a potential threat. I've known Pits as meek as lambs and Chihuahuas as evil as Ol' Hob himself. Responsible owners + socializing the dog = good dog.
Remove either of those and you get - bad dog.
This is not new.

[lupinus]

We grab tails and drag. Unfortunatly, it works best when you have one person for each tail involved. I've grabbing tail and started dragging and ended up on one side of a monkey in the middle situations many times.
 

The disturbing part is when you go from the one dragging to the one being dragged.  

They practiced grab and lift, either the base of the tail or if the opportunity presents itself the back legs are better, just like a wheelbarrow. That, combined with walking the dog backwards and in an arc or circle or zig zag or anything else that'll cause a shuffle, keeps them busy shuffling their front paws to avoid face planting. Even a large dog isn't going to be pulling you with just his front legs or turning around and biting you, especially when he's busy trying to avoid face planting. Dogs apparently rather dislike face planting.

Doesn't solve the being by yourself part of course, one of those varying degrees of suck situations.

[lupinus]

Any dog not socialized properly is a potential threat. I've known Pits as meek as lambs and Chihuahuas as evil as Ol' Hob himself. Responsible owners + socializing the dog = good dog.
Remove either of those and you get - bad dog.
This is not new.

That's true, but only to an extent.

[BlueStarLizzard]

They practiced grab and lift, either the base of the tail or if the opportunity presents itself the back legs are better, just like a wheelbarrow. That, combined with walking the dog backwards and in an arc or circle or zig zag or anything else that'll cause a shuffle, keeps them busy shuffling their front paws to avoid face planting. Even a large dog isn't going to be pulling you with just his front legs or turning around and biting you, especially when he's busy trying to avoid face planting. Dogs apparently rather dislike face planting.

Doesn't solve the being by yourself part of course, one of those varying degrees of suck situations.

Yeah, the thing I worry about is disabling the one I've grabbed so much it can't defend it's head. As long as I don't end up in the middle, I'm sort of safe. It's getting them to seperate. A lot of times they'll lock onto each other and then pulling them apart starts doing more damage. That's how Queenie got her ear peeled. Dinah locked on and wouldn't let go, even when I had her by the tail and was slamming the kennel gate on her head.

 

Dog fights just suck ass. I really don't understand the entertainment value some people find in it.

[lupinus]

Me either. Two animals ripping each other to shreds isn't my idea of quality entertainment.

As counter intuitive as it sounds, it was recommended that when by yourself actually not doing any thing until one dog is dominating the other, and then getting hold of the dog that has gotten the upper hand. Never had to test that theory myself, but the owners based that off the dog that had been dominated would be less likely to continue the fight. And with the lift and back up, the dog is more likely to let go once he has to focus on not face planting.

[zxcvbob]

How about firecrackers?  One of those little 16-packs, or maybe 40's, tossed in the middle ought to do it.  Especially indoors. 

[gunsmith]

water works great for cat fights, I wonder about dog fights?

Smart dogs tend to bite me, like I mentioned earlier I insulted a chi dawg and it gave me hurt for two weeks, about a yr and a half ago I was at a neighbors house ( well, by rural Nevada standards - 23 miles away ) she has a big friendly handsome lab and a high strung border collie... I was petting the lab and I said "labs are much better the collies" and the collie growled - then I said "labs are awesome, and you're not only a border collie, you're a boring collie"  and the freaking bastid bit my upper lip!

Another dog in town is a giant pit, huge, it runs up to the fence and barks - scary as heck - but if you stick your hand in the fence it falls over on its back with its paws in the air looking really scared and timid....

[BlueStarLizzard]

Me either. Two animals ripping each other to shreds isn't my idea of quality entertainment.

As counter intuitive as it sounds, it was recommended that when by yourself actually not doing any thing until one dog is dominating the other, and then getting hold of the dog that has gotten the upper hand. Never had to test that theory myself, but the owners based that off the dog that had been dominated would be less likely to continue the fight. And with the lift and back up, the dog is more likely to let go once he has to focus on not face planting.

It's a delicate matter. One other issue is we would rather they work it out on their own. So we don't step in until the fight is a for sure thing, which usually means it's gone full blown.
Stopping it before it starts means we have to seperate them completly. Which becomes problamatic when you've got over 60 dogs in a kennel and have to play musical kennels. We've got the dogs that never fight, the dogs who have arch nemisis, and the dogs that always fight and keeping up with the inter-canine drama is key to keeping it safe. If you seperate them before they have a chance to work it out, then you're just postponing the ininvetible and usually the resulting fight is a lot worse then the scuffle would have been.

As for firecrackers and water, yeah, no. It might work on some dogs, but it will just escalate it with others.
You know how we keep saying that grabbing collers or necks is going to get you bit because they'll mistake you for who their fighting? They also tend to blame who their fighting for any other crazyness or discomfort they feel and the fighting gets worse.
Sometimes the worse thing you can do is try to seperate them, because unless you can do it quick or you know they are definatly going to fight to the death, any interferance can actually make it worse.

[Balog]

Wasn't aimed at you there BSL so feel free to calm down.

[lupinus]

What BSL said. Fighting dogs, not just a nip or a squabble which should be left alone for them to sort out, but an actual dog fight that one dog is going to be seriously injured or dead from, are in crazy ass kill everything and let god sort them out berserker mode. Anything that adds to the bad juju in the room- yelling, hysterics, panicking, hitting/kicking/poking with a broom/etc. the dogs, tossing a firecracker or other loud noise, etc. is just as likely to make them go more berserk and feel more of a threat as knock them out of it. Water or something might work on a simple squabble, but is just as likely to turn it into a knock out fight.

There's three ways to deal with a dog fight, imo, assuming we remove shoot the damn thing from the list of possibilities. Stop it before it happens by recognizing it before it happens and either separating them or going all pack leader on them while they can still form rational doggy thoughts. Physically separate the dogs, from behind, and get them away from each other. Or do nothing until the situation makes it possible for you to separate the dogs or it ends by itself, which is unfortunately sometimes the only option if you are by yourself.

[zxcvbob]

tossing a firecracker...

Point of clarification:  I was talking about a whole pack of firecrackers   

[lupinus]

Point of clarification:  I was talking about a whole pack of firecrackers   

Point of clarification: Same difference 

[mtnbkr]

I used to loath a lot of toy breeds, particularly Pomarianians. Now, I would own a Pom in a heartbeat. They have really dynamic and clownish personalitys in a very compact form. A good Pom is hard to hate.

My parents have a pom that is an absolute sweetheart.  He's friendly, gentle, not at all yippy, and wants nothing more than for you to love him unconditionally.  Their other dog, a shih tzu, has trust issues with strangers because she was abused by the previous owners' 3yo (not actually abused, but mainly manhandled).  She acts aggressive around strangers, but won't actually bite or harm you.  It's all show.  If you recognize this, pick her up, and give her hugs and attention, she settles down and accepts you.  She's a real sweetheart once she trusts you.  Unfortunately, people are afraid of being bit and don't work through that initial display.  Having been bit before, I'm not going to let a 15lb dog intimidate me, so I snatched her up the first time she tried this and showed her I wasn't afraid.  She's fine with me now.

We have a Havanese.  He's a great dog and sturdy for a toy breed.  We selected the breed because they weren't bred for hunting (I love terriers, but know from having them previously that they don't do well with small grabby children) or other work.  They have always been bred as lapdogs.  However, they're quite sturdy for a toy breed and do well with children.  Ours is a 13lb dog who plays like a 30lb dog.  The only problem we have with ours is that he's VERY food motivated.  He'll take food from the kids if they aren't careful.  However, he's not aggressive about food.  We can reach right into his bowl while he's eating and he doesn't care.

As for other breeds, I'm wary of pits, because I still carry scars all over my head after being attacked by a pit/boxer mix.  That was 31 years ago and the ones on my face are visible (one bisecting my forehead and another just over my eye, inside my eye socket), as are the ones on the rest of my head when I get a short haircut.

If I had space, I'd love a mountain cur.  My uncle has owned and bred them at various times for squirrel hunting.  I've always enjoyed their personality.  I've read they're good protective dogs around their family, but accepting of new people once "vetted" by their owners.  Unfortunately, they are a bit large for a townhouse (40+ lbs based on the ones my uncle has owned).

Chris

[BlueStarLizzard]

It might just be shitz tzu's. We have one family that boards their three shitz tzu's and they are all former show dogs and they all have attitude. They can be very cute and playful, but you have to proove yourself before they'll let you near.

We don't get many Havanese at the kennel. I've seen a couple and they've been very nice. Louise very much admires the breed.

I think one of the major issue with toy breeds is the idiot factor, but a slightly diffrent idiot factor then other dogs. You have to let them be dogs, and way too many owners treat them like little babies or stuffed animals, but don't do stuff like teach them to walk on leashes or even go outside. We have a lot of toys that don't even go outside to potty. They are trained (usually poorly) to use WeeWee pads.
They should be small, affectionate DOGS, not obnoxious, nasty, hyper, helpless little things.
We get a lot of really stupid, ugly bicions, which is grates on my nerves, because the nice pretty ones arn't really half bad. The good ones are fluffy, sweet armfuls of love and can be quite playful and bright. It's not a breed I'd personally really want, but not bad. You just don't see many due to bad, puppymill breeding and idiot owners. It's really sad.

I would like some toys, particularly affinipinchers, lowchens and pappions, as well as poms at some point, but it's definatly going to involve a serious study of avalible breeders before I'd touch one.

[roo_ster]

I would like some toys, particularly affinipinchers, lowchens and pappions, as well as poms at some point, but it's definatly going to involve a serious study of avalible breeders before I'd touch one.

Point of fact:
Even if a papillon dog wanders up to you in August about ready for heat stroke, you contain it and give it water, then put up signs in the neighborhood advertising you found it, the owners still don't appreciate it when you mis-identify it as a "long haired chihuahua" on your home-printed signs.

FTR, I liked the dog a whole lot than its PITA owners.  Next time, no signs, just find a nice old lady who needs a friendly companion...

[BlueStarLizzard]

Point of fact:
Even if a papillon dog wanders up to you in August about ready for heat stroke, you contain it and give it water, then put up signs in the neighborhood advertising you found it, the owners still don't appreciate it when you mis-identify it as a "long haired chihuahua" on your home-printed signs.

FTR, I liked the dog a whole lot than its PITA owners.  Next time, no signs, just find a nice old lady who needs a friendly companion...

*snicker*

Welcome to my world.... 

It's not just papillon owners.     

[Tallpine]

I think one of the major issue with toy breeds is the idiot factor, but a slightly diffrent idiot factor then other dogs. You have to let them be dogs, and way too many owners treat them like little babies or stuffed animals, but don't do stuff like teach them to walk on leashes or even go outside. We have a lot of toys that don't even go outside to potty.

We weren't ever planning to get a "toy" dog and were not planning on keeping the Chewawa-mix that showed up on our land a few years ago.

But then after she recovered from the initial hunger and exposure, we let her out to run with our golden retriever, and saw how she kept up with him even on her tiny legs.  She was very "spunky" and so she became "Spunky" 

She even used to go on horseback rides with me, but I must have taken her too far on too hot a day one time because she won't go with me anymore.  You should have seen her chasing an 1800 lb Hereford bull 

[Perd Hapley]

My parents have a pom...

At first glance, I thought that m was an "rn." Gross.

[lupinus]

We weren't ever planning to get a "toy" dog and were not planning on keeping the Chewawa-mix that showed up on our land a few years ago.

But then after she recovered from the initial hunger and exposure, we let her out to run with our golden retriever, and saw how she kept up with him even on her tiny legs.  She was very "spunky" and so she became "Spunky" 

She even used to go on horseback rides with me, but I must have taken her too far on too hot a day one time because she won't go with me anymore.  You should have seen her chasing an 1800 lb Hereford bull 

My mistake was letting the fie hold the durn thing