Assange holed up in London

[De Selby]

John Walker was a traitor and a Soviet spy. We used to execute such filth.

??!?  Soviet spy?  How was he spying from the mountains of Afghanistan, a place so remote he didn't even know 9/11 had happened?

[Tallpine]

Last time I heard anything about Ecuador was those missionaries getting killed back in the 1950s 

They do have quite a bit of oil IIRC.

[MillCreek]

??!?  Soviet spy?  How was he spying from the mountains of Afghanistan, a place so remote he didn't even know 9/11 had happened?

No, no.  You are thinking of John Walker Lindh, aka 'the American Taliban'.  We are speaking of the John Walker who was a Navy communications officer who spied for the Soviets from the 60's to the 80's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Anthony_Walker_(spy)

[seeker_two]

If it is the embassy, that is an act of war.

Assange is loving every moment.

If GB does this, I see a lot of embassies packing up & leaving.....and maybe a few English ambassadors getting change-of-address cards in their futures....

Let's see how the UN handles this one....

[BobR]

If I recall correctly, no one directly died as a result of Walker.

I would personally disagree with that statement.

He was feeding the Soviets documents, and more damaging, key lists for encoding machines, during the Viet Nam war. Using information supplied by Walker the Soviets were able to feed info to North Viet Nam, including air strikes, etc. While it has never been proven his info caused the death of US servicemen, I will always believe it did.

bob

[roo_ster]

Massive - since they've had an independent leader, who doesn't care about drug spraying and supports democracy in south America.  He booted a us military base, offered to let it stay if he could open a base in Miami...long list of troubles.

Oh, so just another latin american idiot.

Just more proof that ignorant savages would rather be ruled brutally and poorly by their own kind than lightly and well governed by folk who look or sound different.

[HankB]

If GB does this, I see a lot of embassies packing up & leaving.....and maybe a few English ambassadors getting change-of-address cards in their futures....

Let's see how the UN handles this one....

The Brits better close their embassy in Ecuador before they violate Ecuador's embassy in London - if I were a banana republic leader, you better believe I'd be invading the embassy of any country that violated mine within hours of the foreign incursion. (And my embassy guards would have orders to shoot anyone forcing their way in.)

And considering where Ecuador is, and how far British force projection capabilities have fallen since the Falklands festivities, there really isn't much the Brits could do in response.

Do the Brits really think extraditing Assange to Sweden is worth queering their relations with practically all of South and Central America . . . and a whole lot of other countries who will regard British observation of diplomatic niceties with distrust?

[Blakenzy]

Just more proof that ignorant savages would rather be ruled brutally and poorly by their own kind than lightly and well governed by folk who look or sound different.

That comment makes a hell of a lot of assumptions.

[HankB]

That comment makes a hell of a lot of assumptions.

Maybe he just looked at places like Venezuela, Zimbabwe, South Africa, etc.

[agricola]

Do the Brits really think extraditing Assange to Sweden is worth queering their relations with practically all of South and Central America . . . and a whole lot of other countries who will regard British observation of diplomatic niceties with distrust?

You may not have noticed this, but at the moment our relations with South and Central America are not exactly cordial. 

In any case, this OMG THE REDCOATS ARE GOING TO INVADE A SMALL BUILDING BEHIND HARRODS!!!!!!!!!11111one argument comes solely from the Ecuadorians trying desperately to pretend that what they are doing is the principled thing here, rather than actually trying to resolve the situation by pointing out to Assange that he would have been better off actually going to Ecuador before trying to claim asylum.   

But then, of course, this whole affair has been pretty stupid from the start - the allegations against Assange in Sweden are unlikely to result in him being found guilty (though his antics since they came out dont exactly point to his innocence), and the argument that he is more likely to be extradited to your waffle-fond nation from Sweden than he is from our shores is laughable to anyone even remotely familiar with our extradition treaty with the US.  You then have the madness of someone claiming they are fleeing because of journalistic persecution running off to somewhere where journalistic freedom isnt exactly respected.

[roo_ster]

That comment makes a hell of a lot of assumptions.

The primary assumption being that I have read a few history books.

[HankB]

In any case, this OMG THE REDCOATS ARE GOING TO INVADE A SMALL BUILDING BEHIND HARRODS!!!!!!!!!11111one argument comes solely from the Ecuadorians trying desperately to pretend that what they are doing is the principled thing here, rather than actually trying to resolve the situation by pointing out to Assange that he would have been better off actually going to Ecuador before trying to claim asylum.

Why would the redcoats even consider violating Ecuador's embassy over Assange when they wouldn't do the same to Libya's embassy over Yvonne Fletcher?

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than we know . . . 

[seeker_two]

One other thing to consider.....Argentina has started making waves about reacquiring the Maldives/Faulklands again. If this plays out badly, Argentina may make their move....with Ecuador (& maybe even Venezuela) as allies. And GB doesn't have the military punch they once did, esp. being tied up in our WOT.

This could get bad quick....
 

[agricola]

Why would the redcoats even consider violating Ecuador's embassy over Assange when they wouldn't do the same to Libya's embassy over Yvonne Fletcher?

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than we know . . .  

The person who shot WPC Fletcher had (apparently) full diplomatic immunity, Assange doesnt.  In any case there was a siege of that embassy for more than a week, the whole lot were kicked out after they refused to revoke the killer's immunity, and the law was changed (the Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987) to allow the Government to use force should something like that ever happen again.

[Blakenzy]

The primary assumption being that I have read a few history books.

Well then you would know that US influence in Central and South America during the 20th century has often led to the debasement of civil society and the democratic process, people remaining ignorant savages under the poor rule of a brutal local American-sponsored dictator/oligarchy. Hey, that kind of reminds me of the Middle East!

My point being that there is a lot more complexity to the cynical distrust of US foreign meddling than random "savagery and ignorance".

[zxcvbob]

The person who shot WPC Fletcher had (apparently) full diplomatic immunity, Assange doesnt.  In any case there was a siege of that embassy for more than a week, the whole lot were kicked out after they refused to revoke the killer's immunity, and the law was changed (the Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987) to allow the Government to use force should something like that ever happen again.

They can pass a law if that makes them feel better, but it is still illegal under the 1961 Vienna Convention treaty.

[TommyGunn]

Well then you would know that US influence in Central and South America during the 20th century has often led to the debasement of civil society and the democratic process, people remaining ignorant savages under the poor rule of a brutal local American-sponsored dictator/oligarchy. Hey, that kind of reminds me of the Middle East!

My point being that there is a lot more complexity to the cynical distrust of US foreign meddling than random "savagery and ignorance".

We hardly "debased" their society.  We did throw in with a lot political cacafuegos who would have thrown in with the Soviets had it not been for us.
I suppose you think they'd have been better off had they done that?  
The fact they felt they had to "throw in" with anyone reflects their weaknesses more than any accusations of any "debasement" to their society.  

Circa 1970 I had the opportunity to visit Venezuela.  I did not find anybody there to be "debased" or "savage" or even ignorant.   We became good friends with a gentlman there who drove a cab for a living ...before we left he invited us to his house to meet his family.  It would be nice to think a cabdriver in America could make enough $ to buy a house like that, plus he had enough books in his study to make a nice library, had he so desired.
Ignorant?  No way.  
He remained a good family friend for many years until his very untimely death from natural causes.

I have to wonder what life in Venezuela is like now, under Hugo Chavez .....  Not so good, I would think.

[longeyes]

The Brits better close their embassy in Ecuador before they violate Ecuador's embassy in London - if I were a banana republic leader, you better believe I'd be invading the embassy of any country that violated mine within hours of the foreign incursion. (And my embassy guards would have orders to shoot anyone forcing their way in.)

And considering where Ecuador is, and how far British force projection capabilities have fallen since the Falklands festivities, there really isn't much the Brits could do in response.

Do the Brits really think extraditing Assange to Sweden is worth queering their relations with practically all of South and Central America . . . and a whole lot of other countries who will regard British observation of diplomatic niceties with distrust?

Two concepts of justice.  The Anglosphere is coming from a whole different place.  At some point a line must be drawn, no?

[roo_ster]

Well then you would know that US influence in Central and South America during the 20th century has often led to the debasement of civil society and the democratic process, people remaining ignorant savages under the poor rule of a brutal local American-sponsored dictator/oligarchy. Hey, that kind of reminds me of the Middle East!

My point being that there is a lot more complexity to the cynical distrust of US foreign meddling than random "savagery and ignorance".

They didn't need Uncle Sam to debase their society.  They have been doing a fine job for hundreds of years with their own hands.  It is their supreme accomplishment and we ought not take that away from them by denying their ability to act.

Do you really think throwing a little money at any particular country so that its thug leader preferred us to any one of other rivals had a significant effect on their societies?  Given that most non-US aligned latin countries are also unlovely pits, US $$, involvement, and alignment might not be the causal agent.  Perhaps the cause of their being pits is not who waved money under their dictators' noses, but their own culture?

FTR, earlier statement...

Just more proof that ignorant savages would rather be ruled brutally and poorly by their own kind than lightly and well governed by folk who look or sound different.

...is near universal and not confined to latin america.

[AJ Dual]

Well then you would know that US influence in Central and South America during the 20th century has often led to the debasement of civil society and the democratic process, people remaining ignorant savages under the poor rule of a brutal local American-sponsored dictator/oligarchy. Hey, that kind of reminds me of the Middle East!

My point being that there is a lot more complexity to the cynical distrust of US foreign meddling than random "savagery and ignorance".

If we really wanted to debase S. American society, we'd legalize/decriminalize drugs.  The dominoes falling in their economies from where all the cartel money goes would be entertaining to say the least...

[TommyGunn]

If we really wanted to debase S. American society, we'd legalize/decriminalize drugs.  The dominoes falling in their economies from where all the cartel money goes would be entertaining to say the least...

That is one of the most evil suggestions I've ever heard.         

[AJ Dual]

One other thing to consider.....Argentina has started making waves about reacquiring the Maldives/Faulklands again. If this plays out badly, Argentina may make their move....with Ecuador (& maybe even Venezuela) as allies. And GB doesn't have the military punch they once did, esp. being tied up in our WOT.

This could get bad quick....
 

Yes, for Argentina, and anyone foolish enough to try and help them out of some sense of Pan-Southamericanisim, I guess one could call it.

After the first "war", (I resist the urge to call it a "spanking") the Falklands have been rather well garrisoned. And any lack of flattop force-projection the Royal Navy has suffered since then, will just be made up with 20+ years in missile and sub technology. The poor pilots of the mish-mash of aging A-4's and Mirages won't even see who/what is killing them this time, unlike the first time around they went up against the Harriers.

[seeker_two]

I wouldn't be so sure....Argentina & Ecuador aren't as far behind militarily as you think. Add Venezuela's muscle & oil money (supported indirectly by China) and you have a Grade A C*F in the making.....

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

We hardly "debased" their society.  We did throw in with a lot political cacafuegos who would have thrown in with the Soviets had it not been for us.
I suppose you think they'd have been better off had they done that?  
The fact they felt they had to "throw in" with anyone reflects their weaknesses more than any accusations of any "debasement" to their society.  

Circa 1970 I had the opportunity to visit Venezuela.  I did not find anybody there to be "debased" or "savage" or even ignorant.   We became good friends with a gentlman there who drove a cab for a living ...before we left he invited us to his house to meet his family.  It would be nice to think a cabdriver in America could make enough $ to buy a house like that, plus he had enough books in his study to make a nice library, had he so desired.
Ignorant?  No way.  
He remained a good family friend for many years until his very untimely death from natural causes.

I have to wonder what life in Venezuela is like now, under Hugo Chavez .....  Not so good, I would think.

Ah benevolent despotism? Look how happy we keep our darky's? It amuses that amongst folk so concerned about their own liberty and infringements upon it so many are so free with the liberty of others. For me but not for thee.

[AJ Dual]

I wouldn't be so sure....Argentina & Ecuador aren't as far behind militarily as you think. Add Venezuela's muscle & oil money (supported indirectly by China) and you have a Grade A C*F in the making.....

Argentina's air force?   The four Typhoons that are stationed on the Falklands will likely splash them BVR.

Their surface fleet of destroyers etc. is semi-respectable, I'll give you that, but the Brit subs will just sink them if the risk from Exocets is going to be significant. My money's on the RAF and RN.

They may stick out their pinkies at tea time, but the British military is still REALLY good at killin' people.