Author Topic: Lance Armstrong  (Read 6020 times)

zxcvbob

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Lance Armstrong
« on: August 24, 2012, 11:20:12 PM »
I have no opinion one way or the other about whether he used performance enhancing drugs.  HOWEVER if he did, I really doubt that 10 people in the whole world would know about it (2 or 3, maybe.)

But I don't think it would be hard to find 10 people willing to bear false witness about him using drugs.  The USADA and the International Cycling Union probably wouldn't even have to bribe most of them.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2012, 11:49:56 PM »
Don't know much, don't care too.

I will say, if he's all innocent and whatnot, I like his attitude about.
"screw you, take the trophies, I don't care to fight with you idjits anymore." is something more people in this world could stand to do.
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Northwoods

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2012, 12:19:26 AM »
Did he dope?  Probably.  Nearly all of them did.  If you're going to DQ him after the fact you better DQ everyone that was behind him that also was doping.  You'd probably be WAY down the list before you got to a "clean" winner.

Biggest issue as far can tell is that USADA is trying to WAAY overstep their jurisdiction, are breaking many of their own rules (e.g. 8 year "statute of limitations" yet their going after, what, 15 year old cases), the UCI and whatnot was trying to tell them to give it up, they've given "immunity" to others to say Lance doped, and so on.  It has all the hallmarks of a partisan witch hunt rather than a quest for truth and honor.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2012, 12:36:32 AM »
So they give him 300 or 500 drug tests, ALL of which he passed, then they drag out some alleged witnesses of dubious veracity together with some years-old blood samples and they say they have "overwhelming" proof.

I like how they describe their "analysis" of the new blood tests: "In a June letter to Armstrong, a copy of which was obtained by CNN, the USADA said it collected blood samples from him in 2009 and 2010 that were 'fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions.'"

What the heck does that mean? What comes immediately to mind for me is what was reported after the first landing of astronauts on the Moon. They brought back rocks and soil samples. After much analysis of the samples looking for signs of life, the scientists said something like, "These samples contain all the constituents of life ... but they are not alive." So does a blood sample being "fully consistent with" EPO use or transfusions prove that EPO use or transfusions actually took place? I'm not a doctor or a medical scientist, but I sort of think the answer is more along the lines of "These samples contain all the constituents of life ... but they are not alive."

In any event -- Armstrong's last Tour de France win was 2005. It would seem to me that in order to strip him of medals, wins and titles he won from 1999 to 2005 there should be some fairly conclusive proof that he was using performance enhancers from 1999 through 2005. What he was doing in 2009 and 2010, even if proven conclusively, is AT BEST barely circumstantial evidence concerning what he was or wasn't doing or might have been doing from 1999 through 2005.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 12:39:54 AM by Hawkmoon »
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HankB

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2012, 07:36:55 AM »
I'm no Lance Armstrong fanboy - he can pedal a bike better than most anyone else, but by all accounts he's a first class jerk otherwise.

BUT . . . how can an agency that didn't award him the titles in the first place strip them? THEY'RE NOT THEIRS TO TAKE AWAY!

It's one of the basic, most fundamental tenets of American justice that the accused has a right to face his accusers . . . but to this day, the accusers are still anonymous. And as for the tests being "fully consistent" with doping . . . but DID THEY FIND ANY DOPE? And as Hawkmoon said, what he is alleged to have done in 2009 has no bearing on race wins years before; if I get a DWI today, they can't say "Oh, we think you were drinking & driving 10 years ago, so we're going to give you a couple more tickets for back then."

I personally think someone in the background, someone with lots of money, has it in for Armstrong . . . there are literally hundreds of "passed" tests he's gone through and they're still coming after him, this time with some semi-private agency demanding Armstrong answer nonspecific charges from anonymous accusers?

I call BS on this.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2012, 08:42:27 AM »
International sports are plagued by poorly run investigations. 
JD

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Blakenzy

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2012, 10:45:28 AM »
Antidoping regulations are childish nonsense. Everyone does it and everyone knows that sports are way more interesting when the players get to maximize their human potential. Stifling human ingenuity leads nowhere fast.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

Hawkmoon

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2012, 11:33:07 AM »
Antidoping regulations are childish nonsense. Everyone does it and everyone knows that sports are way more interesting when the players get to maximize their human potential. Stifling human ingenuity leads nowhere fast.

I don't agree with you.

I know that ALMOST every professional athlete is doping, but I don't think it's right and I don't think it should be allowed. When they are using chemistry and pharmacology, they are not "maximizing their human potential," they are artificially extending their physical ability BEYOND normal human potential. There are health consequences as a result, and condoning doping by some puts those athletes who don't choose to risk the later consequences at an unfair disadvantage.

I don't find sports populated by dopers to be "more interesting." What's interesting about a chemistry contest? I think sports are more interesting when the players aren't doping, and we see an actual contest of natural athletic ability.
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Blakenzy

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2012, 12:34:19 PM »
What performance enhancing drugs do is activate very specific naturally occurring buttons in your body that make your tissues do more of this or that. It's not like they are some external source of power (like an exoskeleton suit) that imbues the person with magical properties. Players and athletes still need training and they still need skill and they definitely still need willpower and dedication. These factors which I would argue are the most important are still brought forward by the individual. When a high performance athlete reach the limits of what regular physical training yields and they recognize that they can go further who is anyone to tell them that they can only go so far and no more?

Performance enhancing drugs are not for everyone, they do have some risks associated just as any of the prescription drugs that are pushed on us through the TV do, but they are not the poison they are made out to be. Instead of banning them, they should be regulated and administered according to practical medical guidelines made to maximize benefits and reduce untoward effects. Different leagues or classes may be made for people who use or do not use pharmacology. We already do have different classes for athletes who do have the natural pharmacological advantage, we call them men and women's leagues. Brushing the topic under the carpet as the dirty little secret that won't go away is the wrong way to go about it.
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2012, 12:48:52 PM »
Aren't you carping because they in fact did not brush it under carpet
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Hawkmoon

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2012, 01:52:54 PM »
Different leagues or classes may be made for people who use or do not use pharmacology. We already do have different classes for athletes who do have the natural pharmacological advantage, we call them men and women's leagues. Brushing the topic under the carpet as the dirty little secret that won't go away is the wrong way to go about it.

I certainly agree that brushing it under the carpet and pretending it doesn't happen is wrong. Different leagues for non-dopers? I like that. I'd be much more interested in watching non-dopers than I am in watching dopers. Professional sports (and even major college sports) are a joke these days anyway. I stopped watching any of them decades ago.
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roo_ster

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2012, 01:54:24 PM »
LA passed beau coup tests and won in federal effing court.  Anyone not motivated by malice and using their own $$$ would give it up.  This is the athletic world analogy of Obamacare.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

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Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910




"Performance Enhancing Drugs" (PEDs) are slippery as a slime eel.  For instance, it is a no-no for men to take more naturally occurring hormones that have an athletically beneficent effect.  Women, however, are given several such options.  Some folks call them "birth control pills."

The tests are almost invariably behind the latest boutique PEDs, are rife with false positives, and are risible in their scope. (External application of corticosteroids nearly sunk LA one year.  We know such "PEDs" as Preparation H.)

For my own part, I'd like to see most of them eliminated from competition.  But, it is most impractical to do so.  Also, the enforcement has its own version of "affirmative action."

Check out the Williams sisters, Venus and Sammy "The Bull" Williams, the latter of which took up cage fighting (or so it looks):


Check out some of such:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/08/photos-of-athletes-nobody-notices-nuthin.html

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With the news today that Lance Armstrong is surrendering his seven Tour de France cycling titles, I want to return to my rant from last week that nobody seems to notice anything when famous celebrities look a little odd. Here, for example, is a picture of the veteran tennis-playing Williams Sisters from the cover of the upcoming New York Times Sunday Magazine. Venus, on the left, looks like an enormously tall and extremely athletic woman in the peak of physical shape. As I recall, when Venus emerged as a pro in the 1990s, she set a record for velocity of service speed for a woman. So, Venus is really, really strong. If you want to see what a woman who can hit a tennis ball extremely hard looks like, look at Venus.

In contrast, her younger sister Serena, who won the Olympic gold medal earlier this month, looks like she's weighing in to fight Jake LaMotta in Comiskey Park for the welterweight championship.


Granted, these are sisters, not identical twins like Jose and Ozzie Canseco, back when the former was a slugging MVP and the latter was a skinny minor leaguer. Still, I'm fascinated that the two would agree to be photographed side by side. Obviously, the contrast doesn't seem to strike anybody else as interesting.

The links at Sailer's post are...illuminating.

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/2012/08/serena-williams.html

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/2012/07/panic-on-grass-court.html
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Serena Williams has won the Wimbledon final (singles and doubles). She defeated Victoria Azarenka in the semi-finals. She defeated Agnieszka Radwanska in the final. I wonder how Azarenka and Radwanska feel about the fact that Serena was tested exactly zero times out-of-competition by the ITF in 2011 and 2010. Also, Serena was not tested by the USADA for both 2011 and 2010. Both Azarenka and Radwanska were tested out of competition by the ITF in both 2011 and 2010.

When the ITF tried to test Serena out of competition in October 2011, she fled to her panic room. It was reported that the doping control officer had been mistaken for an "intruder." And, as the statistics noted above indicate, she did not give a sample after leaving the panic room.


This post a while back goes into PEDs, their effects on athletes & celebrities, and the willful ignorance the media asumes when writing about them:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/08/a-rant.html

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Or extremely famous people can change their shape radically and it doesn't really come up. For example, Tiger Woods became extremely muscular over a couple of years around age 30 because he was working out like crazy in case he decided to give up golf and enlist in the Navy Seals.

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The craziest example is that in the 2003 California gubernatorial election, the Democrats almost never got around to bringing up the fact that Republican candidate Arnold Schwarzenegger was the world's most famous steroid user and that electing him governor of the largest state in the Union was the highest endorsement possible (Arnold being ineligible for the Presidency) to young people of society's approval of building a career on steroids.

Do read the rest, 'cause you get a bonus Hunter S Thompson quote.




Regards,

roo_ster

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Jamisjockey

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2012, 02:16:41 PM »
Plus we all know how good the euros are at due process....
JD

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InfidelSerf

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2012, 03:09:59 PM »
I guess I don't understand all this malice against "doping"  If we are saying that any and all sports needs to ban enhancing the human body. Then doesn't that mean we have to ban any athlete that wears say contacts, or glasses (your enhancing their bodies natural capabilities) Any athlete with a prosthetic should be banned. Hell if you want to get down right to it you have to ban all nutrition supplements and any form of pharmaceuticals. I mean if a guy has a headache the day of competition that's his body's natural existence at the time of the competition and therefore taking an aspirin or ibuprofen would be enhancing his body.  All this uproar against steroids is ridiculous. At the very least leave it to the sanctioning bodies surrounding the sports and let the athletes that want to use enhancements go create their own sport sanctioning bodies.  When representatives of the federal government start getting involved in these decisions they have crossed a line.

JMHO
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2012, 09:28:37 PM »
Is the investigation BS? I'm betting it was.

Do I think PEDs should be legal? Sure, but in the long run, if you want to have a PED-free contest, more power to you. I for one would be interested in making a contest for openly enhanced athletes available - I want to see just how far we can push human ability with all the powers of science behind it. (Would it be dangerous? Yes. Athletes are volunteers.)

But the real problem is that bans on the use of these products in competition are often followed by government bans on their possession.

I am not an athlete, I will never compete anywhere, I wish to have PEDs avaialable to me.

And yeah, purge the bioethicist.
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French G.

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 11:25:26 PM »
Lance loses a witch hunt. Lance snack crackers forever lost the best marketing ever for not getting Sheryl to do the "I got Lance in my pants." Oh well, can't win them all.

My problem with PED is it diminishes people that achieve without them. And the huge issue is the parents. There are a lot lives destroyed by parents and team doctors trying to get their kid the big break because sports have become too big. So if you want to get your kid a div 1A scholarship and everyone else's kid is juiced, what do you do? Want to make it to the Olympics and get your Wheaties box? Do what everyone else is doing.

I'd bet that some sort of predictive analysis would find doping better than constant testing. Computer model where athletes are by body mass, VO max, whatever metrics you want. Continually track their performance over the long term. Relentlessly blood/urine/hair test any that pop out much above the normal range.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

mtnbkr

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2012, 07:55:09 AM »
I'd bet that some sort of predictive analysis would find doping better than constant testing. Computer model where athletes are by body mass, VO max, whatever metrics you want. Continually track their performance over the long term. Relentlessly blood/urine/hair test any that pop out much above the normal range.

That probably wouldn't work so well with LA.  Prior to his cancer, he was a rather large and muscular cyclist, really too big to be competitive at the Tour.  The cancer, and its treatment, removed a lot of that bulk and allowed him to rebuild his body specifically for longer races such as the Tour.  That, and training specifically for the Tour every year is what enabled him to dominate.  If you tracked his performance year to year starting before his cancer, you'd note the numbers were significantly different after his recovery.

Chris

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2012, 08:05:31 AM »
Since the Olympics, I'm seeing a pretty overt anti-American bias against US athletes. This is just one more example. Maybe we should pull our athletes, and our financial sponsorship, out of the international scene for a few years.

Let's see how the Tour runs in the coming Euro meltdown....
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mtnbkr

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2012, 08:15:10 AM »
Let's see how the Tour runs in the coming Euro meltdown....
I doubt there's enough American money involved to matter.  The Tour is not *that* popular in the US (only popular among serious cyclist or when an American is dominating ala Lance and Greg Lemond).  It's also a point of pride for the French and to a lesser extent, the continental Euros.  I doubt they'd allow enough American influence in order for our pulling out to matter.

Chris

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2012, 08:53:46 AM »
Pulling the US out of the Tour is equivalent to pulling France out of NASCAR.

From what I've read, Armstrong will not lose his wins. The USADA has no authority to pull those wins. Only the UCI can do that.
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birdman

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2012, 10:22:12 AM »
Is the investigation BS? I'm betting it was.

Do I think PEDs should be legal? Sure, but in the long run, if you want to have a PED-free contest, more power to you. I for one would be interested in making a contest for openly enhanced athletes available - I want to see just how far we can push human ability with all the powers of science behind it. (Would it be dangerous? Yes. Athletes are volunteers.)

But the real problem is that bans on the use of these products in competition are often followed by government bans on their possession.

I am not an athlete, I will never compete anywhere, I wish to have PEDs avaialable to me.

And yeah, purge the bioethicist.

We have classes in racing (GT, prototype, formula, etc.  or like supersport and superbike in motorcycling) I think we should have the same thing in athletics, namely 4 classes:

1. Provable organic--constant monitoring, equivalent of super stock class--with a defined rule book stating what you CAN ingest and what food/liquid preparation methods CAN be used (e.g, early 20th century agriculture and preparation methods but modern nutritional knowledge and measurement) .  Minimum of 1 year monitored before competition and genetic comparison to early childhood genome of sample cells from major muscle groups, lungs, and bone marrow. (I predict low participation in this one, but call this "the best of generic human ability--basically, diet and exercise, but all ingested things must be prepared in conventional ways, and be biologically as they were grown...no supplements)

2. Supersport--basically where we are now, a list of what you CAN'T do.  Plus All competitors must be entirely biological and genetically identical to when they were born.

3. Biological augmented (think of this like superbike, ie "production derived hardware")--anything goes, provided it is entirely biological in nature and matching your own genome (no implantation or cultivation of material not of your own body).  Basically every PED plus blood doping, etc etc.

4. Unlimited--anything goes, "run what ya brung" including cybernetics, with the only caveats that the general mechanical configuration (5 fingers/toes per limb, two legs, two arms, articulated spine, general skeletal and body geometry preserved) must be maintained, and no external control interface is allowed (ie actuation of an arm must not require control by actuation of an embedded limb...so no exoskeleton, all activations must be neurological/myological without intermediary mechanical movement interface).   Basically, amphetamine augmented nervous systems controlling cyborg bodies.  Basically, minimal rule "can-am" style...where e rules were basically "car.  As defined by having 4 wheels and a fuel powered engine for drive with a single driver"

"world records" would for that point on be synchronized, existing ones would be used as the basis for class 2.  New records for 1,3, and 4 would have corresponding caveats.  E.g. Class-1 100m dash, 9.7s, Class-2 etc, class-4 3.5 seconds, etc.

I would totally watch that.  Especially since class-3 would be like the SNL skit "steroid Olympics" and class-4 (especially Olympic boxing) would be like the end scenes of robocop-2 mixed with fightclub and avatar.

Class-1 would be boring, but would prove a point to granola eating hippies who think "organic" means better and reject centuries of scientific advancement.

Also, add in a "spec" class where cloned bodies can be rented/purchased for avatar-like operation at a defined biological standard, thus only the neurological side (technique) matters.  This would be good for gymnastics and other sports where the "control" component is more important than raw muscle or cardiovascular performance.  Of course, you could do this one virtually with the appropriate interface as well.


But I digress.  Regarding lance, it's entirely possible he was doping, and probably likely, BUT without any conclusive evidence of the specific "you can't" aspects, he shouldn't be stripped of anything, as rules were not broken (the problem with a "you can't" rule book, anytime you define what can't be done, creative options become legal.  This is why most motor racing organizations learn to make "allowable" list based rules rather than "unallowable" for the classes intended to be mechanically competitive and thus emphasize driver skill).

Of course the other possibility is he is just a statistical abnormality.  All human attributes exist on a continuum, with various tolerance ranges.  An example from Motorsport is why factory "super stock" teams always have way more horsepower than privateers.  all of the parts must be production, but all production parts have tolerances, so if you have access to the entire production run, you can cherry pick (BMW did this with the E36 M3 lightweight where all the engines were dyno'd before installation, all the spec-meeting "normal" (240hp) ones went in the normal m3's, and the 286hp ones went in the LTW).  Basically, pick pistons that are a little tall and wide, cylinders a little short and fat, heads with chambers on the small side of the tolerance and boom, a little more dispose,ent and higher compression.

Same thing for people, with enough people, you'll find someone who is a six sigma case in VO2max, has an atypically strong skeleton, super-fast twitch muscles, massive glycogen storage, etc etc.  give them proper training and of course they will win.   Perhaps lance is just a human Secretariat.

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2012, 12:04:53 PM »
Pulling the US out of the Tour is equivalent to pulling France out of NASCAR.

From what I've read, Armstrong will not lose his wins. The USADA has no authority to pull those wins. Only the UCI can do that.

That's my main problem, every headline is ZOMG LA stripped of all tour wins!!!!"
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2012, 12:25:15 PM »
Quote from: birdman
4. Unlimited--anything goes, "run what ya brung" including cybernetics, with the only caveats that the general mechanical configuration (5 fingers/toes per limb, two legs, two arms, articulated spine, general skeletal and body geometry preserved) must be maintained, and no external control interface is allowed (ie actuation of an arm must not require control by actuation of an embedded limb...so no exoskeleton, all activations must be neurological/myological without intermediary mechanical movement interface).   Basically, amphetamine augmented nervous systems controlling cyborg bodies.  Basically, minimal rule "can-am" style...where e rules were basically "car.  As defined by having 4 wheels and a fuel powered engine for drive with a single driver"


Oh, so he COULD participate? ?:
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2012, 12:52:13 PM »
Quote
I would totally watch that.  Especially since class-3 would be like the SNL skit "steroid Olympics" and class-4 (especially Olympic boxing) would be like the end scenes of robocop-2 mixed with fightclub and avatar.

I would so watch that.

Only thing cooler would be enhanced-persons' MMA fights.
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birdman

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Re: Lance Armstrong
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2012, 12:53:59 PM »

Oh, so he COULD participate? ?:

He could, though with only one arm and one leg augmented, and a normal human in-between, it would be a bloodbath as his augmented limbs rip off.