Author Topic: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"  (Read 6987 times)

drewtam

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2012, 06:25:55 PM »
I do find it a pretty good argument that Romney is the worst R to pick to lead this fight against Obamacare.

To me, the best counter points are
1 - State does not equal federal (as already mentioned by others)
&
2 - Mass authorized this plan WHILE balancing the state budget. The Fed can't seem to balance budget on its major entitlements.
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TommyGunn

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2012, 08:14:46 PM »
Quote from: DeSelby
What makes you think obamacare will cover more than 10 percent, and that romneycare's taxes were any lower?

I didn't realize this board liked state health care as long as it was carried out by states.   


Anything against Obama I guess, even if the alternative is exactly the same.

The FACTS make me think Obamacare will cover everyone, because it does, the FACTS tell me Obamacare has @21 new taxes in it while "Romneycare" doesn't.   
I don't speak for the board but atleast what Romney did was confined to the state. 
 :facepalm: The alternative" is NOT "exactly the same."  Do I have to make the same post all over again to drive that point home:mad: :mad:
Oh and ONE MORE THING.  Please use the quote function properly. Trying to extract what I said from your quote is too much like pulling weeds for me. :police: :angel:
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slingshot

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2012, 08:35:18 PM »
We need to repeal Obama Care.  Period.  If it is not repealed, it needs to be dramatically changed to be more private industry oriented with less government control.  I don't want the government in my health care business.  It is bad enough as it is now.  But the government is in position that can affect positive change.

Obama won the health care debate. People say repeal it, but they still want some government intervention (not control). 
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Scout26

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2012, 08:40:39 PM »
The FACTS make me think Obamacare will cover everyone, because it does, the FACTS tell me Obamacare has @21 new taxes in it while "Romneycare" doesn't.   
I don't speak for the board but atleast what Romney did was confined to the state. 
 :facepalm: The alternative" is NOT "exactly the same."  Do I have to make the same post all over again to drive that point home:mad: :mad:
Oh and ONE MORE THING.  Please use the quote function properly. Trying to extract what I said from your quote is too much like pulling weeds for me. :police: :angel:


Only if you consider that "Everyone" doesn't include about 26 million people.  (Granted this includes about 11 million Illegals, so figure 15 million Americans not covered by Obamacare).

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47873215/Millions_Still_Go_Uninsured_If_Obamacare_Survives
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RocketMan

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2012, 01:06:06 AM »
Only if you consider that "Everyone" doesn't include about 26 million people.  (Granted this includes about 11 million Illegals, so figure 15 million Americans not covered by Obamacare).

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47873215/Millions_Still_Go_Uninsured_If_Obamacare_Survives

And how long do you figure they will remain not covered by ObamaCare?  My guess is not long at all.
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De Selby

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2012, 02:31:03 AM »
And how long do you figure they will remain not covered by ObamaCare?  My guess is not long at all.

Very long is my guess - the big mistake many are making in evaluating Obamamcare is believing that it's universal healthcare or at least an attempt at it.

It is no such thing.
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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2012, 03:49:48 AM »
Again, you are wrong, DS.  ObamaCare is a participatory system that is intended to make health insurance available to everyone in one form or another. At some point illegals will be added to the system.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

lupinus

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2012, 07:12:35 AM »
Again, you are wrong, DS.  ObamaCare is a participatory system that is intended to make health insurance available to everyone in one form or another. At some point illegals will be added to the system.
They basically already are. They just aren't paying for it.
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birdman

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2012, 07:20:21 AM »
Again, you are wrong, DS.  ObamaCare is a participatory system that is intended to make health insurance available to everyone in one form or another. At some point illegals will be added to the system.

They pretty much have to be given the following paraphrased statements
Liberals: "uninsured people make healthcare more expensive" (due to ER visits, no preventative care, etc)
Liberals: "this plan doesn't cover illegal aliens"
Me: "aren't illegal aliens the bulk of the uninsured that NEED health-care (I.e. not those who voluntarily chose not to have it, after all, isn't Medicaid supposed to help citizens who can't afford it?), and won't they still operate in the same fashion?   If so, how does this reduce costs?"
Liberals: ...

The WHOLE point of Medicaid was to help the poor.  So the uninsured argument is a red herring.

seeker_two

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2012, 09:10:18 AM »
Question: Would Romney have pushed for Romneycare if the Massachusetts political system hadn't been pushing for a massive state-run health care system in the first place? And was Romneycare a better alternative to what the Mass Dems were pushing for? And, would Romney push for national Romneycare if his political party eas against it?

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longeyes

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2012, 10:52:48 AM »
Only if you consider that "Everyone" doesn't include about 26 million people.  (Granted this includes about 11 million Illegals, so figure 15 million Americans not covered by Obamacare).

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47873215/Millions_Still_Go_Uninsured_If_Obamacare_Survives

That distinction--legal and illegal--is one that is becoming increasingly meaningless in America, as you know.  The legacy American population, with its annoying values based on liberty, is being swapped out, by design.  That began in 1965, and it has been gaining momentum ever since.  To those who believe there is racism in such a conclusion, you are right, but the racism is coming from the Left.  This is a government that cares about victim classes, not the American people as whole and especially not about the people who built America and still pay the freight.  At some point, maybe, enough people will see beyond the rhetoric--in both parties--and wake up to what has to be done.

Obamacare is about centralized government control of not only a big chunk of the economy but of our individual lives and fates.  That is the issue here: the seizing of individual sovereignty.  Beyond that, Obamacare is about the transfer of not just wealth but health.  Obama has made clear that his priority is not delivering on promises to the people who paid into the system for years but to people who never paid in at all but who somehow "deserve" not only free health care but a complete re-vamping of everyone else's health care program.  This is not just madness, it is effrontery and tyranny.  
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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2012, 11:20:31 AM »
The problem with health care costs is being driven by the providers, doctors, and hospitals.

Their cost structures are ridiculously high, and there is no accountability.
Insurance companies now are just trying to use their size to negotiate discount rates for services.

Neighbor's son just had back surgery last week.
His surgery was to fix screws that were installed incorrectly during the last surgery.
The surgery should be no charge, as it was not done correctly the first time, but he will be charged the full ride.
This is bullshit, and is devoid of accountability.

He also is fighting a nasty infection that he got in the hospital.
He is also being charged for these costs, which is bullshit, as he did nothing wrong.
This is also devoid of accountability for the hospital.

In both these incidents, there would be no charge if is was a car going back to the shop who did the original work.

My belief is that is we can correct these kind if problems, force accountability to doctors and hospitals, make them fix their screw-ups for free, that the cost of health care would drop dramatically, and employers and people would be able to afford that was reasonable priced.

ETA - Bottom line is to fix the problem on the front end, not the back end.

The human body is not an automobile.  It is a heckuva lot more complex.  Producing them and maintaining them is not an assembly-line process, but a job shop.  The auto:human analogy does not pass the laugh test.

Now, medical care can be improved in ways that auto maint can be improved: if we remove gov't interference and inject market forces.  But, the different services will have different means of becoming more efficient.
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birdman

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2012, 12:14:53 PM »
1. Reduced third party payment to encourage market forces
2. Reduced government mandated coverage levels to allow appropriate economic selection
3. Interstate portability
4. Individual tax deduction comparable to employer deduction for health insurance
5. 3 and 4 combined enable individuals to group together to enhance market forces (actually small business insurance co-op's already do this, and are quite effective, but lack 3 and 4)
6. Tort reform through loser pays and punitive damage limits
7. Enhanced risk assessment in pharmaceutical development
8. International pharma agreements for IP reinforcement
9. Eliminate defacto AMA "quotas" to increase supply in boards, residencies, etc.
10. Game-theory incentive reward programs for financial encouragement of healthier behavior (ie a medical version of allstate's no-claim reward program)

There you go, the top 5 would make a huge difference in cost and availability, and the last 5 woud cement the deal.

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2012, 12:27:36 PM »
The human body is not an automobile.  It is a heckuva lot more complex.  Producing them and maintaining them is not an assembly-line process, but a job shop.  The auto:human analogy does not pass the laugh test.

Now, medical care can be improved in ways that auto maint can be improved: if we remove gov't interference and inject market forces.  But, the different services will have different means of becoming more efficient.

Medical care is the one service that you generally don't have an option to "shop around" or even make your own decision about which services you will purchase and which you will forego.  Once you present yourself, the MD tells you what you will buy but almost never tells you what it will cost until you receive the bill  :mad:
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birdman

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2012, 02:12:49 PM »
Medical care is the one service that you generally don't have an option to "shop around" or even make your own decision about which services you will purchase and which you will forego.  Once you present yourself, the MD tells you what you will buy but almost never tells you what it will cost until you receive the bill  :mad:

And therein lies the problem.  People used to get second opinions, ask doctors to explain things better, etc.  now, they just do as they are told, and people wonder why it gets more expensive--limited supply, increasing demand, go figure,

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2012, 07:27:36 PM »
Another factor is the uninsured. We pay for their health care when they can't afford it. The doctors and hospitals amortize those costs and pass them on to the rest of us.


I think a better way of putting it would be the rest pay for those who welch on their bill. I racked up several thousand dollars in hospital bills while uninsured and I paid them off, it took several years of monthly payments, but pay them I did.
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Scout26

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2012, 09:15:09 PM »
Medical care is the one service that you generally don't have an option to "shop around" or even make your own decision about which services you will purchase and which you will forego.  Once you present yourself, the MD tells you what you will buy but almost never tells you what it will cost until you receive the bill  :mad:

Au contraire, Once I had been diagnosed by Mayo, (after seeing about 30 different doctors here in Chicago trying to findout what I had, so call that 30 different 2nd opinions.)  I went and talked with two different Oncologists here about treatment options.  With option 1 always being "Do Nothing".

Which is why there is insurance.  Insurance is suppose to transfer and cover risk, not be a welfare program.  You buy it prior to needing it.  No one sells you car insurance AFTER you had an accident. (They might, but it won't cover the accident you just had.)

And yes, you can negotiate fees for services, if you pay cash.  That's precisely what insurance companies do.  They tell the hospital "We'll pay $X for Y procedure."  The hospital can take or leave it.   If they take it, they are "In-Network".  If they don't, they are "Out-of-Network."  When I went to out-of-network Doc's I would negotiate prices if I hadn't meet the OON and/or Max Family Out of Pocket.  Every single one gave a discount for cash.   Like any other purchase, you just have to be a informed consumer.  Most people aren't because they expect real life to be like "House" or "ER" or "Grey's Anatomy".  Those shows don't show the business side of Healthcare, just the Drama and Docs as all seeing, all knowing, all powerful healers of any and all aliments.  Which like everything else on TV is a load of crap.


The problem with health care costs is being driven by the providers, doctors, and hospitals.

Their cost structures are ridiculously high, and there is no accountability.
Insurance companies now are just trying to use their size to negotiate discount rates for services.

Neighbor's son just had back surgery last week.
His surgery was to fix screws that were installed incorrectly during the last surgery.
The surgery should be no charge, as it was not done correctly the first time, but he will be charged the full ride.
This is bullshit, and is devoid of accountability.

He also is fighting a nasty infection that he got in the hospital.
He is also being charged for these costs, which is bullshit, as he did nothing wrong.
This is also devoid of accountability for the hospital.

In both these incidents, there would be no charge if is was a car going back to the shop who did the original work.

My belief is that is we can correct these kind if problems, force accountability to doctors and hospitals, make them fix their screw-ups for free, that the cost of health care would drop dramatically, and employers and people would be able to afford that was reasonable priced.

ETA - Bottom line is to fix the problem on the front end, not the back end.

1)  Insurance companies have been using their size for years (with help from the .gov) to drive down their costs.

2)  When you say "installed incorrectly" what exactly do you mean?  Put in the wrong place? (Right foot instead of the left).  Put in upside down or backwards?  Or did it not heal the way the doctor expected it to.  (It's amazing to me the number of people who think that if they don't do exactly what the Doc's, nurses, therapists tell them to do that they will still get "all better" and then are shocked and want to blame the Healthcare Provider(s) when they don't.   Have him check his warranty card and see what his options are.  Oh, that's right.  Humans are not cars.  You don't come out of the hospital with a 12 months/12,000 miles on parts, 3 years/36,000 miles on labor warranty after a "repair".   And once something breaks or goes wonky in a human, it's almost impossible to bring ti back to 100%.  So unless the doc did something more or less intentional that made things worse, then he did nothing wrong. 

3)  Last I checked hospitals are not sterile, germ-free environments.  Did any visiting family perhaps have dog crap (dried or fresh) on their shoes?  How about coughs, cold, allergies?  Was he in a plastic bubble during his stay or in an open air room (with perhaps another patient or three?   Did he sign an informed consent that told him "We're going to cut you open, you might get an infection."?  If so, then he knew the risks.  Sometimes, we don't always get the rewards.  Someone has to be in that small percentage that the docs warn you about.    And he knew he could decline.   Medicine has come a long way from Civil War days, when docs used the same instruments on patient after patient after patient.  While we have reduced the number of deaths from infections, that number is not 0. 

4)  The fact is, is that there are far to many variables with the human body (and especially between) human bodies to make medicine nothing more then educated guesses.  We can't be hooked up to a voltmeter or oscilloscope and announce "It's a bad fuse or a bad relay" (see several threads where those questions are asked and the variety of answers!).   My docs never gave me odds, but told me things like "In 82 of 100 people over several studies this treatment did X, which was good.  In 18 out of 100, it did Y, which is bad.  Your call."

So you pays your money and you takes your chances.  Just like everything else in life, there are no guarantees. 
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birdman

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2012, 12:10:22 AM »
Thank you scout, great post!

Waitone

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2012, 07:42:42 PM »
I don't have health insurance but I do have health care.  Years ago telling a provider you didn't have insurance coverage resulted in the third-eye stare.  Now days it is a well drilled process.  My dentist provided me all he documentation I would need to shop for a root canal.  Endodontists (?sp) had no problem with giving me a quotation.  Recently I had a problem with the knee show up.  A trip to the orthopedist required an MRI of the knee.  Once again they provided all the paperwork I needed to get quotations.  I got 4 quotations for an MRI with prices ranging from $2,300 to $385.  The MRI confirmed the diagnosis.  Subsequent treatment was paid with cash which featured an on the spot discount.  I'll eventually have to have surgery.  I'm investigating the costs in different hospitals and different states.  So yes, you can shop for healthcare.  Fortunately my situation is simple but I would expect the same mechanism is in place for more complicated problems.

One other thought.  I will add to birdman's list one other improvement.  Learn the difference between insurance and pre-paid medical expense.  Seems to me the distinction has been lost over the years of employer paid benefits.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 07:47:26 PM by Waitone »
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lupinus

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2012, 08:02:16 PM »
The problem with health care costs is being driven by the providers, doctors, and hospitals.

Their cost structures are ridiculously high, and there is no accountability.
Insurance companies now are just trying to use their size to negotiate discount rates for services.

Neighbor's son just had back surgery last week.
His surgery was to fix screws that were installed incorrectly during the last surgery.
The surgery should be no charge, as it was not done correctly the first time, but he will be charged the full ride.
This is bullshit, and is devoid of accountability.

He also is fighting a nasty infection that he got in the hospital.
He is also being charged for these costs, which is bullshit, as he did nothing wrong.
This is also devoid of accountability for the hospital.

In both these incidents, there would be no charge if is was a car going back to the shop who did the original work.

My belief is that is we can correct these kind if problems, force accountability to doctors and hospitals, make them fix their screw-ups for free, that the cost of health care would drop dramatically, and employers and people would be able to afford that was reasonable priced.

ETA - Bottom line is to fix the problem on the front end, not the back end.
Was the doctor or hospital negligent? If not, then no. It's not bullshit. If the doc installed then wrong, I agree, he should be fixing them for free. If the hospital wasn't properly maintained, I agree, they should cover the infection.

But there is a very important and oft overlooked aspect of medical care and life in general. This aspect is called "*expletive deleted*it Happens". And it is often confused with "They Screwed Up."

Screw ups happen. And when they do, then the responsible part should cover their screw up. But just as often things fall under the realm of *expletive deleted*it Happens.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2012, 10:14:07 PM »
Au contraire, Once I had been diagnosed by Mayo, (after seeing about 30 different doctors here in Chicago trying to findout what I had, so call that 30 different 2nd opinions.)  I went and talked with two different Oncologists here about treatment options.  With option 1 always being "Do Nothing".

Which is why there is insurance.  Insurance is suppose to transfer and cover risk, not be a welfare program.  You buy it prior to needing it.  No one sells you car insurance AFTER you had an accident. (They might, but it won't cover the accident you just had.)

You don't always get options.
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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2012, 10:31:44 PM »
Was the doctor or hospital negligent? If not, then no. It's not bullshit. If the doc installed then wrong, I agree, he should be fixing them for free. If the hospital wasn't properly maintained, I agree, they should cover the infection.

But there is a very important and oft overlooked aspect of medical care and life in general. This aspect is called "*expletive deleted* Happens". And it is often confused with "They Screwed Up."

Screw ups happen. And when they do, then the responsible part should cover their screw up. But just as often things fall under the realm of *expletive deleted* Happens.

When I explain this to the people that are suing my healthcare providers, I say 'sometimes bad things happen to good people, and that doesn't necessarily mean that anyone did anything wrong.'.  Same sentiment, but put nicer for the unhappy patients.
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Lee

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2012, 10:27:38 PM »
Eliminate insurance entirely, both public and private. Insurance has eliminated relative value entirely from the health care system, and remains the only hugely profitable part of it. It's nothing but a ponzi scheme. A doctors visit or a triple bypass should have a fair market value, like anything else.

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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2012, 10:40:18 PM »
And don't think leaving it to "the states" will solve the problem.  It won't.  What RomneyCare reflects is liberal premises and values that pervade most of American culture. 
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Re: "Repealing and replacing ObamaCare"
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2012, 10:49:50 PM »
No, the problem is not insurance (Although it has grown far beyond what it was intended for) it is that X procedure costs $Y. However, Medicare will only pay $(Y-Z).  Medicaid will pay $(Y-Z-Q).  

So when docs have to do X procedure on those without insurance (Medicare, Medicaid or nothing at all [cough]illegal aliens[cough]) they have to charge the insurance companies $(Y+Y+Z+Q) to try to recoup their losses.   But the Insurance companies negotiates a lower rate (in exhange for directing it's paying customer to that Doc/Hospital/Facility)  so that now no one really knows what it costs to do X Procedure.

I'm sick of the sob stories of I owe the hospital and docs $$$$$$$ because I didn't have health insurance.  You can get your own, it can be pricey, however, once again, you pay your money and you take your chances.


Back in the olden days it was "Medical Insurance"  It covered you going to the hospital.   For whatever reason.  Need to see the family doc because junior has the sniffles.  Then break out the checkbook, office visit $25, pay the cashier on the way out.  He'll be fine in 2 days.   I distinctly remember my mom paying for office visits.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 05:21:14 PM by scout26 »
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Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
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