Author Topic: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California  (Read 16401 times)

Nick1911

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2012, 01:44:53 AM »
MicroBalrog, I mentioned out of wedlock (what we used to call "illegitimate") birth rates, not teen pregnancy rates. The illegitimacy rate for whites in 1965 was 3.1% of all births, and 24% for blacks. By 1990 those numbers had reached 18% of all births for whites being "illegitimate" and 64% for blacks. By 2011, the number was 29% for whites and 73% for blacks.

I'm not saying that transvestites or transgender-whatever's cause out of wedlock births. I'm just saying that our culture has changed in many respects sexually, and not necessarily in a positive way, contrary to Dear Abby's Pollyana-ish views on kids "growing up faster".

You know, having been divorced I've never really gotten this – why is it automatically presumed that being married automatically will lead to a better life for the children?  Sure, there's probably correlation, but everyone always speaks of it as causation.  I'm inclined to think the economic and  sociodemographic factors of the parents have more bearing on the well being and home-life of the children then whether or not they acquired a $30 contract from the county clerks office.

I use to think that being married added some sort of finality, some overt stability to the relationship.  It doesn’t.  The perception of stability, sure; but any day of any week throw a couple grand at a lawyer and either of you can get out of it.  It's a dubious legal contract, that's it.

Someday I might have kids with a woman I love.  I'm not convinced that I'm stupid enough to ever get married again, though.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2012, 01:52:07 AM »
You know, having been divorced I've never really gotten this – why is it automatically presumed that being married automatically will lead to a better life for the children?  Sure, there's probably correlation, but everyone always speaks of it as causation.  I'm inclined to think the economic and  sociodemographic factors of the parents have more bearing on the well being and home-life of the children then whether or not they acquired a $30 contract from the county clerks office.

I use to think that being married added some sort of finality, some overt stability to the relationship.  It doesn’t.  The perception of stability, sure; but any day of any week throw a couple grand at a lawyer and either of you can get out of it.  It's a dubious legal contract, that's it.


I think you've described the problem pretty well. As a culture, we've cheapened marriage to the point that it's not uncommon for people to think of it as a "$30 contract." Legally, as you noted, we've made it much easier to get out of. So the legal importance of marriage has been reduced, along with its social importance. Naturally, when we view marriage in this way, it is less likely to mean a stable home for children with their natural parents.
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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2012, 01:57:20 AM »
>I wonder if I could get a job as a server at a Tilted Kilt in Califreakia if I wear the uniform Huh?<

PLEASE GAWDS, NO!!!
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Nick1911

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2012, 01:59:42 AM »
I think you've described the problem pretty well. As a culture, we've cheapened marriage to the point that it's not uncommon for people to think of it as a "$30 contract." Legally, as you noted, we've made it much easier to get out of. So the legal importance of marriage has been reduced, along with its social importance. Naturally, when we view marriage in this way, it is less likely to mean a stable home for children with their natural parents.

We could have a culture like my friends from India describe; even if they are dismally unhappy they remain together because to do otherwise would be dishonorable.  But, personally I think being unhappy my whole life  to meet outside expectations other people have piled on to me is crap.  I'm glad that leaving a hopelessly broken relationship isn't stigmatized like that.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2012, 02:01:08 AM »
We could have a culture like my friends from India describe; even if they are dismally unhappy they remain together because to do otherwise would be dishonorable.  But, personally I think being unhappy my whole life  to meet outside expectations other people have piled on to me is crap.  I'm glad that leaving a hopelessly broken relationship isn't stigmatized like that.

False dichotomy is false.  =)
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Nick1911

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2012, 02:05:47 AM »
False dichotomy is false.  =)

Fair point.

Nick1911

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #56 on: September 09, 2012, 02:51:06 AM »
False dichotomy is false.  =)

I've had an hour and rolled it around in my head a bit.  I'm not convinced the argument is a false dichotomy.

Social and cultural devaluation of marriage means that more people will be willing to leave unhappy, broken relationships.  I don't think this is a bad thing.  I'm curious, if this is a false dichotomy, what is your counterpoint?

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #57 on: September 09, 2012, 03:06:50 AM »
Nick, there are studies that show direct correlation between single parenthood (most often single mother) and issues such as criminal behavior, drug use, poor grades, etc.

How we got from transvestites to single mothers is a mystery to me.

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #58 on: September 09, 2012, 04:11:44 AM »
You gotta get down on your knees and see kid's eye view. I think kids have an innate desire/need to have both parents. I know there is a popular culture need since everything the kid sees tells them it is normal to have mommy and daddy under the same roof with the same name. When they see not normal, they worry. Then they act out. Of course it's no good if mommy and daddy fight all the time they learn that. Or a string of boyfriends passing through the house, etc. No easy answer.

I'm not the least bit convinced the dichotomy is false. I really don't see an alternate set of options. A damn dubious legal contract.  ;)
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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2012, 08:32:12 AM »
Dude.

Smoke causes cancer, full time at minumum wage is still below poverty, I've read the OSHA code book - It's not a draconian, impossible to follow law; it's simple specs to keep people safe in different occupational situations.

I'm the next generation; I'm oddly okay with living in a world where there are PELs on toxic airbone pollutants [including smoke], lung cancer rates are in decline, drop offs of more then 4 feet have to have guardrails and employers have to pay a whopping gross of $1160 a month.

I'm not. All those are back door taxes passed onto the consumer.  Minimum wage is below the poverty level because of the cost of doing business, artificially inflated by government.
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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2012, 08:53:55 AM »
You know, having been divorced I've never really gotten this – why is it automatically presumed that being married automatically will lead to a better life for the children?  Sure, there's probably correlation, but everyone always speaks of it as causation.  I'm inclined to think the economic and  sociodemographic factors of the parents have more bearing on the well being and home-life of the children then whether or not they acquired a $30 contract from the county clerks office.

I use to think that being married added some sort of finality, some overt stability to the relationship.  It doesn’t.  The perception of stability, sure; but any day of any week throw a couple grand at a lawyer and either of you can get out of it.  It's a dubious legal contract, that's it.

Someday I might have kids with a woman I love.  I'm not convinced that I'm stupid enough to ever get married again, though.

Because it's easy to end a marriage, too many people get married when they probably shouldn't and to people they shouldn't marry.  If getting divorced was harder and more expensive (and less acceptable), then people would give the idea more thought. 

Chris

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2012, 08:59:46 AM »
I've had an hour and rolled it around in my head a bit.  I'm not convinced the argument is a false dichotomy.

Social and cultural devaluation of marriage means that more people will be willing to leave unhappy, broken relationships.  I don't think this is a bad thing.  I'm curious, if this is a false dichotomy, what is your counterpoint?

Ultimately it isn't about the institution of marriage, the strength or weakness of the legal bond.

It is about the human heart and our culture. What we as individuals value more than our own self interest and how that is reflected in our cultural mores.

It really isn't about the law when all is said and done.

There used to be a lot more at stake when two people got married. Families were merged, wealth was redistributed, the future of two families through the progeny, the stakes were higher.

This concept of romantic love being the sole basis of marriage is a relatively newer foundation for marriage historically speaking. The redefining of marriage and its "rules" fits our narcissistic age well.  

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White Horseradish

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2012, 12:49:49 PM »
If getting divorced was harder and more expensive (and less acceptable), then people would give the idea more thought. 

Chris
This quite literally made me LOL.

We are specifically talking about people that lack the ability to think ahead here.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2012, 01:03:21 PM »
I am the next generation and I am not.
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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #64 on: September 09, 2012, 01:08:28 PM »
>I wonder if I could get a job as a server at a Tilted Kilt in Califreakia if I wear the uniform Huh?<

PLEASE GAWDS, NO!!!

DISCRIMINATION !!!   :P   =D


The point being isn't it obvious that certain businesses discriminate for certain positions based on sex, age, and appearance  ???

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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #65 on: September 09, 2012, 03:54:35 PM »
You gotta get down on your knees and see kid's eye view. I think kids have an innate desire/need to have both parents. I know there is a popular culture need since everything the kid sees tells them it is normal to have mommy and daddy under the same roof with the same name. When they see not normal, they worry. Then they act out. Of course it's no good if mommy and daddy fight all the time they learn that. Or a string of boyfriends passing through the house, etc. No easy answer.

I'm not the least bit convinced the dichotomy is false. I really don't see an alternate set of options. A damn dubious legal contract.  ;)

When the marriage isn't working it becomes a lose/lose situation for the children.
On one hand, they do want/need that "normal" relationship between their parents.
On the other hand, having that outwardly "normal" relationship between parents only to know it's not functional becomes something of a silent hell.

I've always held that the best option is always going to be the situation in which at least one parent can achive real stability.


Ultimately it isn't about the institution of marriage, the strength or weakness of the legal bond.

It is about the human heart and our culture. What we as individuals value more than our own self interest and how that is reflected in our cultural mores.

It really isn't about the law when all is said and done.

There used to be a lot more at stake when two people got married. Families were merged, wealth was redistributed, the future of two families through the progeny, the stakes were higher.

This concept of romantic love being the sole basis of marriage is a relatively newer foundation for marriage historically speaking. The redefining of marriage and its "rules" fits our narcissistic age well. 



This, times fifty million.

The problems in our culture with marriage, devorce and "having children out of wedlock" is not about the legal or sociatial conventions of marriage.

It's always going to come down to the cultural attitudes to being married, why people get married. The epidemic in our society of the misconseption of what marriage should be based on is the ultimate source of failure.
Too many people have grown up with the false assertation that marriage is all about, and only about "who you love" and these people all fail to take any real consideration of the needs and requirements of two people actually living together for life.
I've started calling it the "fairy tale syndrome", and, sadly enough have come largely to blame it on the female half of the population. These women grow up with low self image, selfish natures, and the inability to sepperarte a real relationship from the romantic comedy fiction they've come to beleive in.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #66 on: September 09, 2012, 04:16:07 PM »
BSL, don't forget the Great Society programs. That explosion in out of wedlock births after 1965 wasn't an accident. When you pay people for something, you get more of it.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #67 on: September 09, 2012, 04:37:04 PM »
Too many people have grown up with the false assertation that marriage is all about, and only about "who you love" and these people all fail to take any real consideration of the needs and requirements of two people actually living together for life.
I've started calling it the "fairy tale syndrome", and, sadly enough have come largely to blame it on the female half of the population. These women grow up with low self image, selfish natures, and the inability to sepperarte a real relationship from the romantic comedy fiction they've come to beleive in.

I think you're onto something, there, but what do you think marriage is really about?


I've had an hour and rolled it around in my head a bit.  I'm not convinced the argument is a false dichotomy.

Social and cultural devaluation of marriage means that more people will be willing to leave unhappy, broken relationships.  I don't think this is a bad thing.  I'm curious, if this is a false dichotomy, what is your counterpoint?


A false dichotomy occurs when someone claims (or at least suggests or implies) that the logical or only alternative to A is Z, when in fact there may be a whole alphabet of options in between the two choices. Often, as in this case, the opposite of one extreme is presented as the only alternative.

So, if I have a counterpoint, it is that you've made the mistake of thinking that any bar to easy divorce is some soul-crushing regime of social pressure that makes lots of people miserable. And I think you're also minimizing the downside of divorce, for those involved. Aside from the legal and social ramifications, isn't divorce at best a necessary evil, and therefor to be avoided?

I think we may need to consider that it might be best if people were less willing to leave unhappy, broken relationships than they are in our society, today. If there were more of a social (and legal) cost to divorce, more couples would stick it out and work a little harder than they seem to do, today. We might actually be happier, that way. Now that doesn't have to mean that divorce would be utterly unthinkable and marriage inescapable. Nor does it mean we have to have arranged marriages, which is what I think your Indian friends are probably describing.

But, to me, the problem with most of our social experimentation, sexual revolution, etc, is that we have been so eager to escape some societal ill that we have thrown out the baby a number of babies with the bathwater. Just to use the OP as an example, there was a time when no one would have complained about a business owner firing someone just because he heard that the employee was cross-dressing on the weekends. But we've now reached a point where the employer is in trouble if he doesn't allow it on the job. There's a more reasonable middle ground in there, somewhere. I think we have the same thing with marriage. Not everyone has to be as opposed to divorce as my wife and I are. But it's becoming more and more obvious that when a culture makes marriage almost meaningless, it becomes, well, almost meaningless.

I admit, I have no defense against the charge that I don't understand the horrors of a bad marriage. Happily, I don't have a lot of experience with those, directly or indirectly. But those who do know about unhappy marriages often know about unhappy divorces. From what I've heard, that's not a very good option, either.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2012, 05:10:56 PM »
Quote
We might actually be happier, that way.

It's clearly offensive when two people are in a happy relationship and someone entices them to separate ("He's no good for you honey!"). Why is the reverse suddenly acceptable?

Quote
But we've now reached a point where the employer is in trouble if he doesn't allow it on the job.

I think nobody here thinks employers should be forced to allow cross-dressing on the job - but let me ask you this.

Suppose we lived in an alternate universe where employers are not forced to allow (or bar) cross-dressing  on the job.

Suppose there were, in such a universe, an employer who allows cross-dressing, and his client would have written a letter to Dear Abby. And then imagine a reply to the tune of: "Hey, you ignorant boor, employers set their own rules! If they want to allow cross-dressing, that's their SACRED RIGHT! AMERICA! HELL YEAH!"

Would you nod and say "Hey, Abby's got it?"
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White Horseradish

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2012, 05:27:54 PM »
Suppose there were, in such a universe, an employer who allows cross-dressing, and his client would have written a letter to Dear Abby. And then imagine a reply to the tune of: "Hey, you ignorant boor, employers set their own rules! If they want to allow cross-dressing, that's their SACRED RIGHT! AMERICA! HELL YEAH!"
I was going to ask how we know that the owner is forced to have that waiter there, since the law doesn't seem to spell it out clearly.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2012, 06:07:57 PM »
It's clearly offensive when two people are in a happy relationship and someone entices them to separate ("He's no good for you honey!"). Why is the reverse suddenly acceptable?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, there.

Quote
I think nobody here thinks employers should be forced to allow cross-dressing on the job - but let me ask you this.

Suppose we lived in an alternate universe where employers are not forced to allow (or bar) cross-dressing  on the job.

Suppose there were, in such a universe, an employer who allows cross-dressing, and his client would have written a letter to Dear Abby. And then imagine a reply to the tune of: "Hey, you ignorant boor, employers set their own rules! If they want to allow cross-dressing, that's their SACRED RIGHT! AMERICA! HELL YEAH!"

Would you nod and say "Hey, Abby's got it?"

I think I've already said as much. Check the transcript.
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Tallpine

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2012, 06:30:14 PM »
Quote
what do you think marriage is really about?

The Hokey Pokey ...?   =|
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2012, 06:44:32 PM »
The Hokey Pokey ...?   =|


Is that what they're calling it, now?
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Tallpine

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2012, 06:47:35 PM »

Is that what they're calling it, now?

That's what it's all about  :lol:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

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Re: Dear Abby, Transvestites, and California
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2012, 06:48:04 PM »

Is that what they're calling it, now?

I want less Hokey and more Pokey.
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