Author Topic: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?  (Read 5017 times)

AZRedhawk44

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RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« on: September 13, 2012, 12:29:19 PM »
http://www.itstactical.com/centcom/its-information/the-recoil-magazine-2nd-amendment-controversy/

Evidently this unsavory fellow named Jerry Tsai, editor of a new firearms magazine called "Recoil," wrote the following:

Quote
Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly.

So, HK thinks we suck, and they hate us.  And so does Recoil magazine, according to all this.

A firestorm of criticism ensues, and Tsai writes this:

Quote
As readers of RECOIL, we all agree that we love bad-ass hardware, there’s no question about that. I believe that in a perfect world, all of us should have access to every kind of gadget that we desire. Believe me, being a civvie myself, I’d love to be able to get my hands on an MP7A1 of my own regardless of its stated purpose, but unfortunately the reality is that it isn’t available to us. As a fellow enthusiast, I know how frustrating it is to want something only to be denied it.

Its manufacturer has not made the gun available to the general public and when we asked if it would ever come to the commercial market, they replied that it is strictly a military and law enforcement weapon, adding that there are no sporting applications for it. Is it wrong that HK decided against selling a full-auto pocket sized machine gun that can penetrate armor from hundreds of yards away? It’s their decision to make and their decision they have to live with not mine nor anybody else’s.

I accepted their answer for what it was out of respect for those serving in uniform.

I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way. Like HK, I wouldn’t want to see one of these slip into the wrong hands either. Whether or not you agree with this is fine. I am compelled to explain a point that I was trying to make that may have not been clear.

Those in uniform can evidently do no wrong, according to Mr Tsai, and the American population has absolutely no need for weapons capable of defeating armor.  Ever.

Respecting people in uniform basically means not sending any rounds at them, whether from a Glock 17, a .50BMG, or this HK subgun (of course there's more to "respect" than just not shooting someone... but Mr Tsai suggests that this gun in civvie hands is somehow disrespectful of those people???).  The platform is irrelevant.  But the 2A is not intended for sporting purposes.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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mtnbkr

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 12:31:04 PM »
Welcome to two days ago. ;)

Chris

AZRedhawk44

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 12:44:14 PM »
Welcome to two days ago. ;)

Chris

Yeah, I know it's a couple days old.  But nothing on APS about it yet.  Figgered I'd share.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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I reject your authoritah!

birdman

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 12:49:20 PM »
Yeah, I know it's a couple days old.  But nothing on APS about it yet.  Figgered I'd share.

One would think Rev would have posed something, since he helped start it.

makattak

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 12:58:13 PM »
H und K threw him under the bus, too:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/7259

Quote
Some readers have misinterpreted a recent feature story in RECOIL magazine as a reflection of HK policy. Heckler & Koch has a long presence in the US civilian market and throughout that time has been an ardent and passionate supporter of the Second Amendment and the American civilian shooter. This will always be the case. The contents, opinions, and statements expressed in that feature story are those of the writer, not Heckler and Koch’s. Additionally, the writer and RECOIL magazine have issued a clarification and apology for the ill-chosen words used in the story.

The HK MP7A1 4.6 mm Personal Defense Weapon mentioned in the story is a selective-fire product (capable of “full automatic” fire) and is currently restricted to military and law enforcement agencies by BATF. HK-USA has previously researched introducing similar commercial products, chambered in 4.6 mm, but it was determined that the final product would not have enough appeal or be legally feasible.

— Heckler & Koch USA

Now, I 100% believe he was just parroting what someone from H und K told him. I'm impressed that they are trying to avoid the "Because you suck. And we hate you." characterization, though.
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brimic

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 01:01:44 PM »
Quote
I'm impressed that they are trying to avoid the "Because you suck. And we hate you." characterization, though.

There's a first for everything I guess.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/

^^^^
Quote
One would think Rev would have posed something, since he helped start it.

Lolz
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AJ Dual

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 03:10:36 PM »
H und K threw him under the bus, too:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/7259

Now, I 100% believe he was just parroting what someone from H und K told him. I'm impressed that they are trying to avoid the "Because you suck. And we hate you." characterization, though.

I'm usually the FIRST person to roll with the "HK, because you suck, and we hate you" jokes, but in defense of HK, they've either lost money on their civilian sales, or the .gov regulated them out of existence through import bans or the AWB.

For instance, SP89 sales were dismal when it first came out, the tacticool market wasn't nearly as big back then, and folks couldn't see spending $600 on a HUGE 9mm "pistol", when you could get a Ruger that took 15 or 30 round magazines for only $300...

And the $200 bucks to SBR it into something practical was almost double the value, about $380 in 2012 dollars. And people didn't have the Internet to handhold them through the ins and outs of the NFA process either.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 03:16:31 PM by AJ Dual »
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HankB

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2012, 03:29:32 PM »
In defense of HK, they've either lost money on their civilian sales, or the .gov regulated them out of existence through import bans or the AWB.
One might argue that they have a history of putting out *crap* products too, like their old HK4 (cheap Mauser HSc copy made of stampings) and polymer VP70Z. (with terrible ergonomics and one of the worst triggers to come down the pike.)

For instance, SP89 sales were dismal when it first came out, the tacticool market wasn't nearly as big back then, and folks couldn't see spending $600 on a HUGE 9mm "pistol", when you could get a Ruger that took 15 or 30 round magazines for only $300...
A case in point; great big 9mm "pistols" don't sell well . . . even the famous "UZI" didn't do too well in "pistol" form.

And their HK416/MR556 - another piston driven AR clone - is pricey even compared to other quality rifles on the AR platform, besides being late to the party. I will say, their current USP-series guns seem to work well, but they're a bit on the bulky side.

Their perceived "Because you suck and we hate you" attitude hasn't helped, either . . . Americans don't respond well to this kind of Teutonic arrogance, especially when there doesn't seem to be that much for them to be justifiably arrogant about.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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lee n. field

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 03:32:52 PM »
I actually saw Recoil mag yesterday (magazine rack in the grocery story).

It's nothing I'm remotely interested in reading, and I'm as much of a gun geek as anyone.  Just another lifestyle print rag.
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AJ Dual

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 03:57:02 PM »
One might argue that they have a history of putting out *crap* products too, like their old HK4 (cheap Mauser HSc copy made of stampings) and polymer VP70Z. (with terrible ergonomics and one of the worst triggers to come down the pike.)
A case in point; great big 9mm "pistols" don't sell well . . . even the famous "UZI" didn't do too well in "pistol" form.

And their HK416/MR556 - another piston driven AR clone - is pricey even compared to other quality rifles on the AR platform, besides being late to the party. I will say, their current USP-series guns seem to work well, but they're a bit on the bulky side.

Their perceived "Because you suck and we hate you" attitude hasn't helped, either . . . Americans don't respond well to this kind of Teutonic arrogance, especially when there doesn't seem to be that much for them to be justifiably arrogant about.

I've never heard any complaints about the HK4, other than it was too large for a .380 or .32, much less a .25 or .22, but it reflected the waning but still dominant European pistol culture that considered .32 and .380 "service calibers" while American gun culture pretty much considered them BUG/pocket-gun calibers.

The VP70z (zivilian/civilian) did indeed have a horrid trigger, but of course that's because it was made to be a FA SMG with a dual semi/FA trigger pull with the pistol stock holster engaging the sear. They were trying to leverage the polymer frame as cost savings, intending it to be sort of a 1980's STEN that West Germany could stockpile for the populace and police to help fend off a Warsaw Pact invasion through the Fulda Gap etc.  HK never really intended to sell the z model as a direct marketing idea. They had the tooling, so decided to ship some to America and see if they'd make any money.

Of course they didn't, but it's not like the VP 70 was a stand-alone concept they had tried.

The HK416/MR556, as far as I knew, it was just an intentional act of bone throwing to the American civilian market. I doubt they made any money on the number of them they released.

I'll agree that there has been some actual  "Because you suck and we hate you" from HK over the years, but I'd say 5% of it was actual "tude" from the company, and 95% buthurtedness on the part of the American shooting market blaming HK, when the deck was almost always stacked against HK's products economically or legislatively. (GCA '68 "import points". Bush '89 import ban, '94 AWB... P7's being too expensive to machine and hand-fit due to it's design, despite how much they were loved by their fans... etc.)

During the entire civilian "golden age" of HK civilian products, they also got SPANKED by domestic U.S. arms. An HK93 in 5.56 was something like $900, when AR's were $200-300 cheaper, the Mini-14 $500 cheaper. The SP89 "pistol" was $600 or so, when a $300 Ruger could hold as many rounds and had much cheaper magazines too.

And the tacticool market was a lot smaller then. The ten years of the '94 AWB, and the expansion of CCW that made America lust after "tactical" firearms as arguably the biggest market segment hadn't happened yet.

Not to mention, like water, market forces and opportunity costs always flow to the cheapest point, even when you wouldn't think certain items weren't even in direct competition. $300 MAK 90's, and $50-99 SKS's by the barrel were being sold in gun stores side by side with the HK products too.

I guess one could argue that a TRULY committed, innovative, and aggressive company would have figured out ways to overcome all these things, but HK always had a stacked deck against it in the U.S. civilian market, either in terms of timing, money, or regulations.
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HankB

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2012, 04:30:16 PM »
I've never heard any complaints about the HK4, other than it was too large for a .380 or .32, much less a .25 or .22, but it reflected the waning but still dominant European pistol culture that considered .32 and .380 "service calibers" while American gun culture pretty much considered them BUG/pocket-gun calibers.

The VP70z (zivilian/civilian) did indeed have a horrid trigger, but of course that's because it was made to be a FA SMG with a dual semi/FA trigger pull with the pistol stock holster engaging the sear. They were trying to leverage the polymer frame as cost savings, intending it to be sort of a 1980's STEN that West Germany could stockpile for the populace and police to help fend off a Warsaw Pact invasion through the Fulda Gap etc.  HK never really intended to sell the z model as a direct marketing idea. They had the tooling, so decided to ship some to America and see if they'd make any money.
The HK4 was a multi-caliber convertible pistol . . . in its day, the size was OK, right in line with a PPK or HSc. In fact, The design was based on the Mauser HSc as envisioned by a General Motor's MBA who wasn't a shooter, but loved Six Sigma for R&D. One of the guys in my college had one, and after the frame broke it would fire either 1, 2, or 3 shots with each pull of the trigger. Unpredictably. (I read that they actually had an original HSc designer on their staff . . . ) As I recall, he had some issues getting service from H&K, but it's been so long ago I don't remember the details.

The VP70 didn't make much of a splash with European military - I think some African nations bought a few - and the story I heard was that HK decided to try and make back some of their R&D and tooling money by selling guns in the US, since "Dose crazy Amerikans, dey vill buy anytink. Und besides, dey suk und ve hate dem."    ;)
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2012, 11:00:33 PM »
I was waiting for this to appear here
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Fly320s

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 06:12:59 AM »
The editor resigned yesterday.
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birdman

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 07:35:54 AM »
How much is an SP89 now?

RevDisk

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 09:06:11 AM »

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

dogmush

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2012, 09:09:32 AM »
Quote
How much is an SP89 now?

The one's I've seen in the last year or so were $4k-$6k

RevDisk

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2012, 09:10:30 AM »
One would think Rev would have posed something, since he helped start it.
H und K threw him under the bus, too:

Now, I 100% believe he was just parroting what someone from H und K told him. I'm impressed that they are trying to avoid the "Because you suck. And we hate you." characterization, though.

I'm told that someone emailed my picture to H&K the evening I took it. Honestly, no idea if it's true.

Apparently, a lot of emailing went out.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2012, 09:37:30 AM »
 :lol:  Diggin' the MHI smiley.

brimic

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2012, 10:21:36 AM »
Quote
I'm told that someone emailed my picture to H&K the evening I took it. Honestly, no idea if it's true.

Maybe HK will send you some free goodies :P
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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RevDisk

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2012, 10:30:03 AM »
Maybe HK will send you some free goodies :P

I should email them asking if they wanted my limited edition copy of RECOIL in exchange for a USP...

Na, I'll frame the magazine and add it to my wall instead.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Jamie B

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2012, 10:36:37 AM »
There's a first for everything I guess.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/

^^^^
Lolz

Quote
If I was one of Recoil’s investors, I would be pissed off, and I’d really want to know what dumbass made the decision to hire people who knew absolutely nothing about a particular culture to edit a magazine about that culture. That is sort of like hiring Michael Vick to be editor of Dog Fancy.

My, but he writes well!  =D
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2012, 12:59:59 PM »
The inception back story is the magazine conglomerate is owned (of course) by left leaning liberal cause backing string pullers
that are trying to insert the sporting clause meme into gunny vernacular at the behest of Sarah Brady and the Clintons.
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Hawkmoon

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2012, 11:53:36 AM »
The inception back story is the magazine conglomerate is owned (of course) by left leaning liberal cause backing string pullers
that are trying to insert the sporting clause meme into gunny vernacular at the behest of Sarah Brady and the Clintons.

WHAT sporting clause meme? Has the 2nd Amendment been amended to insert a previously unknown sporting clause? Or have the Brady Bunch simply redefined "militia" as "sportsmen"?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2012, 11:56:56 AM »
Quote
sporting clause

Meh.

Three-gun and subgun and precision rifle matches are all "sports."

Suck it, control freaks and those with fetishes for authoritah.   [ar15]
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Harold Tuttle

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Re: RECOIL magazine? A new Zumbo?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 12:08:26 PM »
its for the children®
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"