Author Topic: End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate  (Read 6712 times)

roo_ster

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John Leo sums upthe actions of the Shaivo debate participants.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/050411/11john.htm

It is quoted below with some commentary by me.  All emphasis is my doing.

4/11/05
By John Leo
End of the Affair

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Some final notes on the Terri Schiavo case. The behavior of conservatives: Uneven and sometimes awful, with lots of vituperation and extreme charges. (Jeb Bush does not remind me of Pontius Pilate; I don't think it's fair to circulate rumors that Michael Schiavo was a wife-beater.) Worse were the revolutionary suggestions that the courts be ignored or defied, perhaps by sending in the National Guard to reconnect the tube. This is "by any means necessary" rhetoric of the radical left, this time let loose by angry conservatives. Where does this rhetoric lead?
I think we saw some of this in the APS debate on this issue, with charges of "nazi death cultist" and "Pontius Pilate."

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The behavior of liberals: Mystifying. While conservative opinion was severely splintered, liberal opinion seemed monolithic: Let her die. Liberals usually rally to the side of vulnerable people, but not in this case. Democrats talked abstractly about procedures and rules, a reversal of familiar roles. I do not understand why liberal friends defined the issue almost solely in terms of government intruding into family matters. Liberals are famously willing to enter family affairs to defend individual rights, opposing parental-consent laws, for example. Why not here? Nonintervention is morally suspect when there is strong reason to wonder whether the decision-maker in the family has the helpless person's best interests at heart.
Here I disagree with Leo.  I did not find liberal opinion mystifying.  It is entirely in accord with the view that a baby/fetus in the womb is a mere lump of cells to be suctioned out if at all inconvenient.  It is also in accord with the view that we ought to create embyos, etc. in order to destroy them for our pleasure or grow them to a certain point and "harvest" them.

I think that silence or calls for "following procedure" was the wisest course of action for those in favor of the above.  Outright cheerleading, with chants like:

"Pull the tube!"
let us shout
she's not human
just a brussell sprout!
HOORAAY!!!


might not go over well with most of America.

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A few liberals broke ranks--10 members of the black caucus, for instance, plus Sen. Tom Harkin and Ralph Nader, who called the case "court-imposed homicide." But such voices were rare. My suspicion is that liberal opinion was guided by smoldering resentment toward President Bush and the rising contempt for religion in general and conservative Christians in particular. We seem headed for much more conflict between religious and secular Americans.
I saw plenty of contempt for religion in general & Christians in particular in the APS debate.

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The behavior of the news media: Terrible. "Pro-life" columnist Nat Hentoff of the Village Voice called it "the worst case of liberal media bias I've seen yet." Many stories and headlines were politically loaded. Small example of large disdain: On air, a CBS correspondent called the Florida rallies a "religious roadshow," a term unlikely to have been applied to Martin Luther King Jr.'s civil rights demonstrations or any other rallies meeting CBS's approval. More important, it was hard to find news that Michael Schiavo had provided no therapy or rehabilitation for his wife since 1994 and even blocked the use of antibiotics when Terri developed a urinary infection. And the big national newspapers claimed as a fact that Michael Schiavo's long-delayed recollection of Terri's wish to die, supported only by hearsay from Michael's brother and a sister-in-law, met the standard for "clear and convincing evidence" of consent. It did nothing of the sort, particularly with two of Terri's friends testifying the opposite. The media covered the intervention by Congress as narrowly political and unwarranted. They largely fudged the debates over whether Terri Schiavo was indeed in a persistent vegetative state and whether tube-feeding meant that Schiavo was on life support. In the Nancy Cruzan case, the Supreme Court said that tube-feeding is life support, but some ethicists and disability leaders strongly dispute that position.
When liberals or members of designated minority groups (DMG) use their churches to organize or their faith as justification for their views, their views are "informed by their faith.  Non-DMG conservatives who do the same are "Christo-fascists."

The MSM desperately sought to spin it as a "right to die" issue, when it was nothing of the sort.  No serious commentator on the "pro-tube" side of the debate argued that an individual can not refuse life-saving treatment.  The issue was the validity of Terri's desire to have the tube pulled, given her circumstances, and Michael Shaivo's fitness as her guardian to make such a decision.

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Unsettled questions. Public opinion: Polls showed very strong opposition to the Republican intervention, but the likelihood is that those polled weren't primarily concerned with Terri Schiavo or Republican overreaching, if that's what it was. They were thinking about themselves and how to avoid being in Terri Schiavo's predicament. Many, too, have pulled the plug on family members and don't want these wrenching decisions second-guessed by the courts or the public.
I surely want the state to be as far away from such a decision as possible, other than to err on the side of life if someone ends up in such a state without any family to speak/act for them.

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If this is correct, it means the country has yet to make up its mind on the issue of personhood and whether it is moral and just to remove tube-supplied food and water from people with grave cognitive disabilities. The following candid exchange occurred on Court TV last month in a conversation between author Wesley Smith and bioethicist Bill Allen. Smith: ["Bill, do you think Terri is a person?" Allen: "No, I do not. I think having awareness is an essential criterion for personhood." Fetuses, babies, and Alzheimer's patients are only minimally aware and might not fit this definition of personhood, and so would have no claim on our protections. Smith points out that other bioethicists narrow protection further, requiring rationality, the capacity to experience desire, or the ability to value one's own existence. Tighter definitions of personhood expand the number of humans who can be killed without blame or harvested for their organs while still alive. On Court TV, Allen argued that the family could have removed Terri's organs while she was alive, "just as we allow people to say what they want done with their assets." This issue has been hiding behind the Terri Schiavo case for years. Soon it will be out in the open.
I think this last bit bears repeating:
Quote
Allen argued that the family could have removed Terri's organs while she was alive, "just as we allow people to say what they want done with their assets."
We have an inkling of where this issue will slide, given the happenings in the Netherlands and their practices of euthanasia of the terminally ill and newborns born with dificulties.
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roo_ster

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Sean Smith

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2005, 08:33:28 AM »
Quote
We have an inkling of where this issue will slide, given the happenings in the Netherlands and their practices of euthanasia of the terminally ill and newborns born with dificulties.
Not so much.

The court ruled that SHE had decided that SHE didn't want to live under conditions like the ones she was in.  The court made no independent value judgement about her life whatsoever.  It ruled that SHE had already made that judgement, and applied HER judgement about the matter.  You can make a valid argument concerning if the "preponderance of the evidence" requirement was met or not, due to the conflicting testimony.  But this B.S. about the case setting a precedent for mass euthanasia on demand (as some have claimed) is simply false.

As an issue of law the case was utterly straightforward.  The only valid argument against the decision is that the evidence that a) Terri had a clearly expressed desire to not be sustained in a PVS, and b) that she was in a PVS, did not meet the burden of proof.  And the only non-silly argument in that regard revolves around a), but the people arguing against the decision have wasted their time outright lying about b), crying about the "slippery slope" to Nazi-style death camps for the disabled, and so forth.

Actually reading the decisions of the various courts makes these sorts of statements look extremely silly.  Right or wrong, the court decisions are very narrow and straightforward.  They just say that in this instance, the evidence led them to conclude that a) she said she didn't want to be sustained under set of conditions X, and b) she was in set of conditions X, therefore c) she gets what she wants.  There really isn't anything else to them; they don't create any rights out of whole cloth or any crap like that (unlike, say, Roe V. Wade, which invented a right to abortion pretty much out of whole cloth).

And am I the only person on the Earth who knows that the "slippery slope" by any other name is still a logical fallacy?  Tongue

RealGun

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2005, 10:40:50 AM »
Ah phooey! It was just a bunch of people who either refused to accept that judge's ruling, then or now, or who never really cared what Terri's wishes were, contrary to how they might have called it. The rest of the ain't-it-awful comments were just people who couldn't handle the reality of the scenario.

Guest

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2005, 11:45:56 PM »
Be real careful about stating this as a liberal/conservative issue, it isnt. The republicans are making the same mistake they have made in the past by heeding the wishes of a VERY vocal minority of their constituents rather than the majority that is just quiety shaking their collective heads at their embarrasing display. With all the accusations of a "faith-based" government a whole lot of political conservatives are starting to get a wee bit freaked out by our current crop of Republicans.

telewinz

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2005, 12:15:56 AM »
It's a matter of personal choice and others honoring that choice.  I what that option to remain since Terri's wishes are the same as mine (when the time comes) and I don't want anyone in the "peanut gallery" imposing THEIR morals upon me.  Doing so strikes me as being the real EVIL!
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RevDisk

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2005, 12:16:33 AM »
Quote from: jfruser
Here I disagree with Leo.  I did not find liberal opinion mystifying.  It is entirely in accord with the view that a baby/fetus in the womb is a mere lump of cells to be suctioned out if at all inconvenient.  It is also in accord with the view that we ought to create embyos, etc. in order to destroy them for our pleasure or grow them to a certain point and "harvest" them.
You are assuming their motives.  Most people thought the issue was the court trying to decide if Terri would want to remain in such a state or die.  A good number of liberals did indeed think it was not the federal government's place to intervene in an affair between the family and the courts.  


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I saw plenty of contempt for religion in general & Christians in particular in the APS debate.
Some of us believe that the seperation of church and state is a good thing.  Even barring the seperation of church and state, every people is entitled to their own opinions of religion.  What you saw as "contempt of Christianity in particular" was more likely disagreement over YOUR beliefs.  

Keep in mind, many Americans died to protect your beliefs and also protect the right of people to hold "contempt" and/or disagree for your beliefs.  



Quote
We have an inkling of where this issue will slide, given the happenings in the Netherlands and their practices of euthanasia of the terminally ill and newborns born with dificulties.
I doubt it.  This ruling will not create death camps for the physically unacceptable.  This case was a court ruling over a complicated "Do Not Resusitate" matter.  DNR's have been around for a long time.  Terri should have spelled out her desires in her will.  

I hope some good comes out of this case.  If you have not done so, make up a will.  Everyone should have one.
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telewinz

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2005, 12:24:09 AM »
The only thing worse than a fanantic Moslem is a fanantic Christian.  I wonder which faith has the most blood on their hands?
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TarpleyG

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2005, 02:26:13 AM »
I'm with Sean on this one.  Those that believe the court ruled one way or the other about her condition should go back and re-read the decision.  I won't interject my opinions on this matter other than to urge all of you to read my sig line and consider the ramifications of your heated passion about certain subjects.  Let's try and keep it civil else we will get our sandbox taken away again.

Greg

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2005, 03:24:12 AM »
"The only thing worse than a fanantic Moslem is a fanantic Christian.  I wonder which faith has the most blood on their hands?"

The godless religions of the "humanists" seem to be the ones with most of the blood on their hands in modern history.

As an aside and off topic, I have been surprised at the not so subtle attacks on Christianity on this board.

jamz

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2005, 05:09:34 AM »
Yaay, another Schavio thread!  

Love, James
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griz

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2005, 07:20:47 AM »
Not only do I disagree with the assertion that it is a liberal/conservative issue, I dont even agree that its one issue.  I figure at least four separate things were involved:

1. Right to die issue.
2. Arguments over who should have the final say over her life.
3. The definition of life support; is a feeding tube artificial.
4. The contradiction of the court ruling that a living breathing human could be starved to death while it would be illegal to execute her.

All of these are separate even though related. Peoples opinions were all over the place. Two people might agree on one issue but disagree on another. Note that several of these issues have been resolved in court, but clearly the decisions are far from unanimous. To me #3 was the one that bothered me the most. I think it is wrong to starve any mammal to death. I cant get over the fact that the court would prosecute you for forgetting to feed your cat for two weeks, but ordered her death by starvation/dehydration. Maybe her unfortunate fate will result in our laws catching up to modern medicine.

Ironically this case probably would not have been news if the parents and husband had been more civil to each other. I have no idea how it could have been resolved, but when the parents have to get permission from the husband to be with their dying daughter, something is seriously wrong. With minimal evidence, I feel the biggest tragedy is both parties used her to get press coverage for their side. RIP TS
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Sean Smith

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2005, 09:44:44 AM »
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3. The definition of life support; is a feeding tube artificial.
Florida law is crystal clear on this point.  You may not like it, but it is unequivocally the law.

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4. The contradiction of the court ruling that a living breathing human could be starved to death while it would be illegal to execute her.
That's not a contradiction.  It is a distortion on your part of what actually happened.  

The court ruled that SHE said that SHE had determined in advance that SHE would want to be taken off the feeding tube under those conditions.  Why is that so hard to grasp?  The court enforced HER wishes (as far as it could determine them), it did not independently find her guilty of being handicapped/retarded and sentence her to death.  It isn't even apples and oranges, it is apples and Cadillacs.

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I think it is wrong to starve any mammal to death. I cant get over the fact that the court would prosecute you for forgetting to feed your cat for two weeks, but ordered her death by starvation/dehydration.
Another false analogy.  The cat can't tell you to not feed it if it gets brain damaged.  Terri Schiavo could, and according to the courts, did just that.  Again, they may have made a factual or legal error.  But there is no contradiction whatsoever in what they did.

wasrjoe

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2005, 04:01:32 PM »
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As an aside and off topic, I have been surprised at the not so subtle attacks on Christianity on this board.
We are now allowed to talk about religion, unlike on THR. It's not really surprising to me, at all. There have been a lot of not-so-subtle attacks on other beliefs, too. I believe that Mrs. Schiavo was a vegetable, and am therefore a "Nazi death-cultist" as a result.

I suppose that my point is that when you are allowed to talk about religion, politics, and which sports team is the best, people are bound to offend you.
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DustinD

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End of the Affair: The Behavior of Participants in the Schiavo Debate
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2005, 10:19:40 PM »
Quote
I think it is wrong to starve any mammal to death.
I can kind of agree, but she wanted to be starved according to her husband. I would too in that situation. A morphine overdose would be better yet, much quicker. I doubt that in her state she is capable of being starved, as she is already dead.
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griz

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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2005, 02:02:41 AM »
Dustin, can you point to testimony where Mr. Schavio said his wife wanted to be starved to death if in a PVS? I'm not disputing that the courts decided she did not want to stay on a machine, but it's a leap to get from there to no food/water.

Sean, I've read it again and I must have missed what you are calling distortion. Please tell me where the distortion is in my statement:

4. The contradiction of the court ruling that a living breathing human could be starved to death while it would be illegal to execute her.

As for the courts crystal clear decision, I have already acknowledged that in my post. I'm just saying that a lot of people think the courts are wrong on that point.
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possenti

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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2005, 03:14:57 AM »
Just one question:

When the day comes that judges "rule" against the Second Amendment, how many people will follow THOSE rulings?

I'm not going to argue anymore about Terri Shaivo.  She's dead now.  It's over.

I just want a simple answer from the people who supported the "rule of law", and insisted that the courts be "obeyed no matter what."
 
Will you comply when gun registration is ruled to be "constitutional"?  What about confiscation?  Or door-to-door no-knock searches?  Will you follow along?  People who passionately supported the courts on the Shaivo case did so because their personal feelings were compatible with the decision.  What if it's a different situation someday?

Quote
The only thing worse than a fanantic Moslem is a fanantic Christian.
Yep.  Them fanatic Christians are crashing planes into buildings everywhere, and they're lopping off heads of everyone they meet.  I just saw one yesterday putting anthrax into a vat of baby formula....  Gimme a break...

mfree

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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2005, 04:26:08 AM »
"not-so subtle attack on Christianity"

As opposed to the completely subtle attacks on those who don't agree? I suppose I'm one of the Nazi death cultists, considering in my opinion TS died 15 years ago, and she's been "living dead" ever since. There are living breathing human beings, and there are breathing human beings, and she fell into the latter.

I an thoroughly convinced that she told her husband she didn't want to live this way. With that, I had no *choice* but to accept that the thing to do was let Mr. Schiavo pull the tube, regardless of what *I* wanted to see.

This is my final word on the issue.

PaulV

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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2005, 11:09:55 AM »
Quote from: GoRon
As an aside and off topic, I have been surprised at the not so subtle attacks on Christianity on this board.
It shouldn't surprise you.  It has been happening in various forums for over 2,000 years.  There is a silver lining in that cloud though.

"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you."

DustinD

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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2005, 12:21:07 PM »
I would like to go on record as not always being in favor of the rule of law. I like the idea of laws if they are just, and good people agree with them, but not the laws that are perveted by crooked politicians or laws that violate innocent people's rights.

Back on topic. I doubt this will lead to euthanasia, if anything laws like the one in Texas(that I support) would be closer to causing it. Is it voluntery in the Netherlands? Do people choose to die, does the government kill people against their will, or do they just stop paying for the ones they can not save?

Sean Smith: I think the slippery slope is only a fallacy if you are having a logical discussion. Politics in this country is about incrementalism, both sides usually want everything, and have reasons for it that they do not discuss, such as in the case of moral issues. I think it slippery slopes apply some times.
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Feanaro

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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2005, 01:19:42 PM »
Quote
When the day comes that judges "rule" against the Second Amendment, how many people will follow THOSE rulings?
Sounds like apples to oranges to me. There is a clear case for the government not being able to infringe on that right via the Second and Tenth Amendments. But there is nothing I can find in the BOR stating that you have the right not to have the plug pulled on you. There are good, logical arguements that can be made against the decision. Along the lines of "the evidence that Terri wanted to die is thin and the courts should err on the side of life." But comparing it to rulings against the SA sounds disparate to me.
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possenti

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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2005, 03:47:30 PM »
Quote
But there is nothing I can find in the BOR stating that you have the right not to have the plug pulled on you.
Ever heard of the DoI?

"...they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."  (emphasis mine)

Of course, Jefferson was one of those right-wing radical guys...  Not exactly a Christian, but a deist.  He believed in a Supreme Being, but not necessarily the God of the Holy Bible.

How could that NOT be understood?  Let's leave the religous argument out of it - At the least, the courts ruled against Terri on the basis of hearsay.  Only her "husband" knew of her "wishes" to die.  So we let her dehydrate/starve to death based on that?

RevDisk

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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2005, 06:15:02 PM »
Quote from: possenti
How could that NOT be understood?  Let's leave the religous argument out of it - At the least, the courts ruled against Terri on the basis of hearsay.  Only her "husband" knew of her "wishes" to die.  So we let her dehydrate/starve to death based on that?
She did not have a will that stated in black and white her wishes.  Thus, the decision passed to her husband.  Who is to blame?  Terri.  She should have filled out a will, as all responsible adults should do.  So, yes, the COURTS let her dehydrate/starve on the closest information they had on her wishes.  

If you have a problem with this, please fill out your will in a very clear manner and it won't ever be a problem for you.
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Winston Smith

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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2005, 09:52:59 PM »
It's my personal opinion, that one woman's comatose life and subsequent death ARE NONE OF MY DAMN BUISNESS.

And that if the state shouldn't intervene, then I sure has hell shouldn't act like I should.

If that were me, I'd want to die. If that were one of my relatives, I'd pull the plug. But it's not, I have no say, and it's not my buisness anyway.

And trying to paint is as a liberal/democrat issue; or even worse, a christian/infidel issue ... well, dictionary.com says it better:

o·ver·sim·pli·fy:   To simplify to the point of causing misrepresentation, misconception, or error.
Jack
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I'm eighteen years old. I know everything and I'm invincible.
Right?

Sean Smith

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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2005, 03:12:01 AM »
Quote from: possenti
Only her "husband" knew of her "wishes" to die.
A lie.  There were witnesses other than her husband who testified to that effect at the trial.  You don't have to believe them, either, but let's at least be honest about what actually happened.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder02-00.pdf

griz

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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2005, 05:13:03 AM »
Sean, that document is very informative. One thing in it was the people who testified about her wishes referred to Karen Ann Quinlin, and the movie made about her, as the example that Terri Schiavo discussed relative to her decision to "pull the plug". (Her term)

Although the court disagrees with me, I found it noteworthy that Quinlin was unhooked from the machines keeping her alive, but not her feeding tube. Even though she lived for a lot longer than doctors expected, I would still call that nature taking its course.

In Terri's case, I simply think that cutting off her supply of food and water is the same as ordering her death. Yes I realize that the courts ruled that a feeding tube is medical treatment, but if the courts were infallible there would only be unanimous decisions. Still waiting for you explanation of my "distortion".
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