Louisiana petitions to leave the Union

[longeyes]

I have had "a clue" for years now.  When others pooh-poohed "crazy talk" about secession, I told you what was percolating.  And who's making prophecy now?  You are so sure the impulse to secede is going nowhere, huh?  It's not about whether a specific petition is fully there now or whether the Feds are sympathetic--of course they aren't or won't be--it's about what is going on in the heart and mind of the Republic.  Face it, man, a lot of people want OUT and that number is going to grow apace as things deteriorate over the next year or two.  How it actually plays out we don't know yet, although you seem to think you do.

I don't get the Rasputin reference, but I can assure you I am much better looking and no doubt a much better shot.  :)

[TommyGunn]

Ease up, OK?  The Rasputin/get a clue was a joke.  Maybe a bad one clumsily delivered, but just a joke.

I have a hard time believing that these on-line petitions are in any way meaningful or are going anywhere.
One reason for that is the only "response" the govt. is required to provide is, as I said, "no."  That's it.
If secession is to go anywhere it must be pursued through other means.
During reconstruction there was a court case that pretty  much stated that for a state to secede it could only be by mutal agreement, and that isn't going to happen (IMHO).
During the formation of the union, the philosophies of two philosophers had much influence on the founders with regard to this question.  John Locke's and Thomas Hobbes' ideas provided a contrasting foundation for the question of secession.  Under the Hobbesian concept, once the union was formed and agreed to, each state was permanently part of it and the matter was settled.  Those who followed Locke's teachings were more liberal (in the classic sense, not modern) and they felt that should conditions change and the federal government became too evil/oppressive then the state could withdraw.
The Lockian idea won out.
But unfortunatly, the denoument of the Civil War and that nefarious court case ended this construct and now we progress, basically, under the Hobbsian construction.
If you want to blame someone, then find that idiotic jackwagon who opened fire on Fort Sumter. 
I suppose technically you could secede today ... but if you do, you'd have to win the war.
Just like during the Civil War .... the South could have successfuly seceded and formed the C.S.A. and ruled themselves ....had they won the war.  As Pol Pot once said, "real political power comes from the barrel of a gun."
As far as people "want(ing) OUT and that number is going to grow apace as things deteriorate over the next year or two," I suspect you're right, as I don't see America being well positioned for an amazing economic recovery ... or even a blah economic recovery.
But secession is not the answer.  The answer is not to amputate states, it's to correct the problems with the whole.  That's a big, big problem but it is the only way we're going to improve things. 
As poorly as the fedgov is operating many state governments are actually worse, and are only afloat due to monies received from Washington DC.  Those states will sink if they were to be without the feds.

Secession may be going somwhere.  But it isn't going anywhere good.

Now I gather that you probably will not agree with me but atleast that is a more serious answer to your earlier statement and I hope it isn't as obtuse as the Rasputin reference. 

[Jim147]

Does anyone have a list of states that can "afford" to secede from the federal tit?

jim

[kgbsquirrel]

Does anyone have a list of states that can "afford" to secede from the federal tit?

jim

Are we going to be taking into account the myriad federal taxes and fees that the states and their citizens will no longer being paying?

[lee n. field]

Are we going to be taking into account the myriad federal taxes and fees that the states and their citizens will no longer being paying?

ARe we going to take into account having to maintain a military on their own?  And maintaining a zillion little embassies "in the lifestyle to which they are accustomed"?

Secceeding will mostly just bring the problem (corrupt, overpowerful state) closer to home.

[Scout26]

As Pol Pot once said, "real political power comes from the barrel of a gun."

Mao Zeodong.

[Jamisjockey]

ARe we going to take into account having to maintain a military on their own?  And maintaining a zillion little embassies "in the lifestyle to which they are accustomed"?

Secceeding will mostly just bring the problem (corrupt, overpowerful state) closer to home.

This is where I'm at on the subject.  I just don't see a powerful secession movement without liberty.  I see a new tyranny, with a different address, and a right wing bent.

[RevDisk]

Petitions are cute, and all. But any state strongly wishing to leave the union would get a JDAM through their capital building just prior to their power stations getting scrammed.

States may or may not have a right to peacefully depart the union. That's academic. The reality is, the feds have more and bigger guns. And the will to use them. Lincoln may or may not have been right, but he did some extremely illegal things to preserve the union. Those have long been forgotten or erased from the majority of history books.

This is where I'm at on the subject.  I just don't see a powerful secession movement without liberty.  I see a new tyranny, with a different address, and a right wing bent.

Ayep. No guarantee that the alternative may be better. Might be a lot worse.

Granted, smaller less powerful tyranny is easier to deal with.

[Ron]

How about a block of states seceding and forming a new looser confederation?

Personally I don't see it happening in any way, shape or form.

The police state will disrupt, disband and destroy any movements organization before it could pick up any steam, crushed using the toolbox of anti terrorism goodies.

The newspeak propagated throughout the MSM demonizing the movement will have friends, family and coworkers turning each other in to the authorities as their patriotic duty.   

[zahc]

How about a block of states seceding and forming a new looser confederation?

You could form the confederation BEFORE seceding. This could be something along the lines of the 'free state project'. Once a bloc of states is formed, then it becomes a 'thing', at first informal, but gradually gaining collective bargaining power. I would expect the Supreme court to (attempt to) strike down intra-bloc trade agreements and so on, so that's where the battle would be fought. It wouldn't be much of a battle, though, because the Supreme court would fail to recognize any autonomy at all.

[AZRedhawk44]

This is where I'm at on the subject.  I just don't see a powerful secession movement without liberty.  I see a new tyranny, with a different address, and a right wing bent.

This.

If TX is one of the leading instigators, I weep for the people of TX and any State that hangs its hopes on riding TX's coattails on the way out and joining a new Union with them.  I only lived there, in Dallas, for 6 months, but my impression of the State is that they are all hat and no cowboy.  Lots of flag-waving and apple pies, and lots of love of authoritah.  Dry counties, jackboot cops, bapti-puritanism embodied in their legal code.  NM and AZ have very little in common with TX and don't have the population levels to defend themselves from TX oriented legislation.

As far as people "want(ing) OUT and that number is going to grow apace as things deteriorate over the next year or two," I suspect you're right, as I don't see America being well positioned for an amazing economic recovery ... or even a blah economic recovery.
But secession is not the answer. The answer is not to amputate states, it's to correct the problems with the whole.  That's a big, big problem but it is the only way we're going to improve things.  
As poorly as the fedgov is operating many state governments are actually worse, and are only afloat due to monies received from Washington DC.  Those states will sink if they were to be without the feds.

Secession may be going somwhere.  But it isn't going anywhere good.

Now I gather that you probably will not agree with me but atleast that is a more serious answer to your earlier statement and I hope it isn't as obtuse as the Rasputin reference.  

Sigh.  I loathe to acknowledge the amount of work involved in this or the likelihood of success within my lifetime, but this is unfortunately correct.

People are just now learning how destructive "Democracy" can be.  Tyranny at the point of the proxied gun, leveraged by the majority against the minority.  We will experience great ugliness as a Nation.  DHS's many tentacles will violate all of us not unlike a Japanese schoolgirl, and we have no recourse to stop it since the courts are appendages of that same machinery.

I don't know where the solution lies.  Secession just re-starts the cycle of Democratic Tyranny all over again.  It will likely end with a series of very potent armed confrontations that make Waco and Ruby Ridge look unimportant, and that will be enough to tell the Feds that enough is enough.  But it will still rebuild itself unless CA, NY, PA, MA and similar States lose the collectivist mindset and respect actual individual liberty and rights.

[seeker_two]

Rev is right....any true effort toward secession would be met with overwhelming force by the "Union". And then the secessionists would respond with "terrorist" actions such as assasinations and bombings on Federal targets. Good thing our troops are well-versed in handling insurgencies.   It'll turn into Belfast pretty quick....with a good chance of Bosnia in the forecast....

....not the way I want to spend my golden years.....

[longeyes]

Petitions are cute, and all. But any state strongly wishing to leave the union would get a JDAM through their capital building just prior to their power stations getting scrammed.

States may or may not have a right to peacefully depart the union. That's academic. The reality is, the feds have more and bigger guns. And the will to use them. Lincoln may or may not have been right, but he did some extremely illegal things to preserve the union. Those have long been forgotten or erased from the majority of history books.


Ayep. No guarantee that the alternative may be better. Might be a lot worse.

Granted, smaller less powerful tyranny is easier to deal with.

No one wants to spend his golden years in dangerous chaos.  You're right, leave the dangerous chaos and the serfdom to your kids and grandkids.

Excuse my cynicism.  When the JDAMs rain down and the power stations get zapped a lot of Americans will not only understand the real basis of government--coercion--but may finally recognize what is at stake.  When bad faith becomes the order of the day, all bets are off.  I don't think anybody (sane) WANTS Bosnia here in America, but we didn't make that possibility a plausible scenario, the other side did.  Yes, if it comes to that, they will kill us, but they won't kill all of us, and they won't do it in peace and comfort either.  

This is a profoundly depressing thread, all the more depressing because the very people who ought to be in the forefront of defending liberty are apparently more concerned about peace at all and any costs.  When did armed polite society drop armed and society and become just polite?  Golden years become lead years?

[longeyes]

Ease up, OK?  The Rasputin/get a clue was a joke.  Maybe a bad one clumsily delivered, but just a joke.

I have a hard time believing that these on-line petitions are in any way meaningful or are going anywhere.
One reason for that is the only "response" the govt. is required to provide is, as I said, "no."  That's it.
If secession is to go anywhere it must be pursued through other means.
During reconstruction there was a court case that pretty  much stated that for a state to secede it could only be by mutal agreement, and that isn't going to happen (IMHO).
During the formation of the union, the philosophies of two philosophers had much influence on the founders with regard to this question.  John Locke's and Thomas Hobbes' ideas provided a contrasting foundation for the question of secession.  Under the Hobbesian concept, once the union was formed and agreed to, each state was permanently part of it and the matter was settled.  Those who followed Locke's teachings were more liberal (in the classic sense, not modern) and they felt that should conditions change and the federal government became too evil/oppressive then the state could withdraw.
The Lockian idea won out.
But unfortunatly, the denoument of the Civil War and that nefarious court case ended this construct and now we progress, basically, under the Hobbsian construction.
If you want to blame someone, then find that idiotic jackwagon who opened fire on Fort Sumter. 
I suppose technically you could secede today ... but if you do, you'd have to win the war.
Just like during the Civil War .... the South could have successfuly seceded and formed the C.S.A. and ruled themselves ....had they won the war.  As Pol Pot once said, "real political power comes from the barrel of a gun."
As far as people "want(ing) OUT and that number is going to grow apace as things deteriorate over the next year or two," I suspect you're right, as I don't see America being well positioned for an amazing economic recovery ... or even a blah economic recovery.
But secession is not the answer.  The answer is not to amputate states, it's to correct the problems with the whole.  That's a big, big problem but it is the only way we're going to improve things. 
As poorly as the fedgov is operating many state governments are actually worse, and are only afloat due to monies received from Washington DC.  Those states will sink if they were to be without the feds.

Secession may be going somwhere.  But it isn't going anywhere good.

Now I gather that you probably will not agree with me but atleast that is a more serious answer to your earlier statement and I hope it isn't as obtuse as the Rasputin reference. 

Actually, the politics of amputation is exactly the realistic course.  You say "correct the problems with the whole."  Okay, tell us how.  Until people begin, somehow, in some way, to say no, and mean it, they are headed for inevitable total serfdom.

I do not promote secession, I merely observe that it is becoming the inevitable requirement for any semblance of political liberty as we have known it.  I realize that all roads now appear to lead to a ****storm but sometimes that is the only viable way.  America has lost both its values and its legacy people, and that will make any regeneration if not impossible very, very difficult.  Any plenary "solution" that would accomplish what you hope to would still be draconian?  Are you willing to shut down the education or welfare systems, control the messages of "entertainment," restrict the ambit of SCOTUS...? 

[TommyGunn]

No one wants to spend his golden years in dangerous chaos.  You're right, leave the dangerous chaos and the serfdom to your kids and grandkids.

Excuse my cynicism.  When the JDAMs rain down and the power stations get zapped a lot of Americans will not only understand the real basis of government--coercion--but may finally recognize what is at stake.  When bad faith becomes the order of the day, all bets are off.  I don't think anybody (sane) WANTS Bosnia here in America, but we didn't make that possibility a plausible scenario, the other side did.  Yes, if it comes to that, they will kill us, but they won't kill all of us, and they won't do it in peace and comfort either.  

This is a profoundly depressing thread, all the more depressing because the very people who ought to be in the forefront of defending liberty are apparently more concerned about peace at all and any costs.  When did armed polite society drop armed and society and become just polite?

   Are you hankering for a civil war?
If so, keep in mind that, despite its name, it won't be fought with civility when it comes.





Don't give up on us yet.
IF it comes to it I will fight for freedom.
~But~
What I won't do is enage in it for trivial or pointless causes, or enter into foolish "chest-thumping" discussions about "taking over" government(s) which only draw undue attention from authorities and mark one as a nutcase.
I won't try to encourage other people to do these things either for similar reasons.


I will, after every peaceful avenue of redress has been used or eliminated, pick up arms and fight for freedom.  In so doing I will (A.) bring as many armed friends as possible, (B.) make sure all bills are paid, and my estate is in order, and my grave is dug.

"War is hell."
And the good guys will probably lose -- which is why it should be a lst resort.

[TommyGunn]

Actually, the politics of amputation is exactly the realistic course.  You say "correct the problems with the whole."  Okay, tell us how.  Until people begin, somehow, in some way, to say no, and mean it, they are headed for inevitable total serfdom.

Traditionally, the "liberty trinity" is 1.) The ballot Box, 2.) The Jury Box, and 3.) The cartridge box.
 The ballot box is still available -- we just had an election.   One thing to consider is Obama did NOT win as many votes in 2012 as he did in 2008.  However, Mitt Romney did not even do as well as McCain did in '08 so far as numbers are concerned.
There are things people can do to become politically involved.  Even writing a leter to the editor of local newspapers might be of some help.  Go actually work on a newspaper.  It's said "the pen is mightier than the sword."  The modern paper runs off of fancy word processing equipment, which is mightier than the assault rifle, I suspect.
You can kill people with a gun but with a paper you can persuade enemies to be your allies.

I do not promote secession, I merely observe that it is becoming the inevitable requirement for any semblance of political liberty as we have known it.  I realize that all roads now appear to lead to a ****storm but sometimes that is the only viable way.  America has lost both its values and its legacy people, and that will make any regeneration if not impossible very, very difficult.  Any plenary "solution" that would accomplish what you hope to would still be draconian?  Are you willing to shut down the education or welfare systems, control the messages of "entertainment," restrict the ambit of SCOTUS...? 

Secession is not a viable  "requirement for any semblance of political liberty as we have known it."  It will lead us nowhere, except to that self-same ****storm.

It is said that when Confucious wished ill on someone he would retort; "may you live in interesting times."  Well, we are indeed heading toward those times with our ever-increasing debt and a kongress full of poltroons, tyrants and morons who evince hardly any real desire to put forward the effort necessary to cut government back. "Are you willing to shut down the education or welfare systems ...?"  Actually, yes, I would be.  It is going to happen. 
The debt will come due sometime, somehow no matter, and the overbuilt "house of cards" we've built up as our entitlement society WILL COME CRASHING DOWN ON OUR NECKS.  The ONLY alternative is to dismantle it under controled, careful, intelligent control.  But we have amptly demonstrated we are incapable of that control and do not possess that intelligence. 

Still we must try. 

I do recommend that you prepare well for failure.  It's the only realistic denoument available to us at this point.

[longeyes]

For the record: I am not hankering after a civil war any more than I am hankering after serfdom.

I have proposed a militant and activist civil liberties movement--the Tea Party is the start--in America.  But it will have to large and motivated.  It may require, as MLK's did, civil disobedience in the manner of Henry David Thoreau.  It will have to recognize the realities of who controls the money in America and who controls the ideas.  This is huge stuff, as you know.

No, armed conflict is absolutely the last thing I long for.  My view is that in standing up for ourselves we will be faced with that from the other side, as previous posters have so eloquently informed us.  This is no doubt so.  Okay, then what?

[longeyes]

I fail to understand why the current demographic composition or the political implementation of our polity is assumed to be a GIVEN.  You think the US of A cannot exist in a different form?  It did, of course, in the past, and it can in the future.  We do not have to have the exact same political structure we have today.  We can exact term limits at all levels, in all branches.  We can change the tax structure.  We can reform entitlements.

In theory.  

And, yeah, that should be the goal, but there comes a time when the train has left the station and you don't have either the allies or, more to the point, the time.  To change this nation back, from the inside out, with the current structure, in the best scenario, would take the same amount of time it took to create it, at the very least.  That, depending on your analysis, could be two generations, or it could be three or four.  

It might happen, but at that point I tend to think we will have a lot more on our minds.

***

TommyGunn, I don't question your good intentions.  I do hope we can prevail without ugliness.

[AZRedhawk44]

Traditionally, the "liberty trinity" is 1.) The ballot Box, 2.) The Jury Box, and 3.) The cartridge box.
 The ballot box is still available -- we just had an election.   One thing to consider is Obama did NOT win as many votes in 2012 as he did in 2008.  However, Mitt Romney did not even do as well as McCain did in '08 so far as numbers are concerned.
There are things people can do to become politically involved.  Even writing a leter to the editor of local newspapers might be of some help.  Go actually work on a newspaper.  It's said "the pen is mightier than the sword."  The modern paper runs off of fancy word processing equipment, which is mightier than the assault rifle, I suspect.
You can kill people with a gun but with a paper you can persuade enemies to be your allies.

You forgot The Soap Box and The Cash (Tax Collector's) Box.  The way I typically hear it though, is the Soap Box, Ballot Box and Bullet Box.  I'll give you your Jury Box, though courts and DA's do their best to discourage FIJA knowledge.

Tax Rebellion is likely to become a powerful liberty tool.  Freedom and will to participate in non-conventional commerce can harm tax revenues to the "gimme" State.  The Ballot Box is broken, though.  I think irrevocably so, as long as we accept 2-party rule in this country and all alternative parties are shunned by the population as a "wasted vote."  Then, there's the shenanigans with vote counting:

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Media/Media-Files/001-1113122726-2012-11-13-Hours1-3-Josh-Irino-and-Justin-Paup-In-Studio-Election-Fraud-up-Close.mp3

Duplicate serial number zip ties?  Votes being "counted" that haven't even been opened yet?  Companies in NYC responsible for reporting election counts to news media outlets?  Hundreds of thousands of votes being counted by only 4 workers during election day, while the supposed real vote counters are still being trained in a classroom and undergoing certification process to do the count?

Voting is granting sanction to all of this, IMO.

[longeyes]

+1.

Step one is to recognize the fraudulent nature of the system as it is.  Step two is to reject it.

[TommyGunn]

For the record: I am not hankering after a civil war any more than I am hankering after serfdom.

I have proposed a militant and activist civil liberties movement--the Tea Party is the start--in America.  But it will have to large and motivated.  It may require, as MLK's did, civil disobedience in the manner of Henry David Thoreau.  It will have to recognize the realities of who controls the money in America and who controls the ideas.  This is huge stuff, as you know.

No, armed conflict is absolutely the last thing I long for.  My view is that in standing up for ourselves we will be faced with that from the other side, as previous posters have so eloquently informed us.  This is no doubt so.  Okay, then what?

Probably about the best scenario one could hope for.  I don't  hold out much hope.  The Tea Party had a good run but I am chagrined at how it has been demonized and marginalized by many in the MSM and kongress as extremists because they want to actually balance the budget and control givernment.  It's hard for me to get my head around the idea that people who want to shrink deficits, control spending and the growth of  govt. power would be demonized this way as "extremists."   But they are, and there you have it.

I'm not longing for armed conflict either; I'm glad we agree about that atleast.

[SADShooter]

I've got a comfy pilowtop mattress and only discovered HDTV a few months ago, so I'm not in a "burn it all down" frame of mind, either. The talk of secession, conservative governors, the state marijuana legalization initiatives, etc. have the potential to create momentum to slow or somewhat reverse fedgov expansion, and push a return to emphasis on federalism, with more decisions made at state and local levels. I think that's the best we can hope for. If the radical idea prompts people to think about pragmatic alternatives in the middle, it serves a purpose.

[RevDisk]

I don't know where the solution lies.  Secession just re-starts the cycle of Democratic Tyranny all over again.  It will likely end with a series of very potent armed confrontations that make Waco and Ruby Ridge look unimportant, and that will be enough to tell the Feds that enough is enough.  But it will still rebuild itself unless CA, NY, PA, MA and similar States lose the collectivist mindset and respect actual individual liberty and rights.

Pardon?  PA is one of the better states. We were founded by Quakers and set the trend on religious freedom. An example is our first and only witch trial is an example.  A lady confessed to being a witch.  "You are found guilty of being a witch. Now get out of my courtroom.".  Our soldiers also nearly lynched Hamilton. No other state can make that claim.

We have a healthy, if laid back, freedom kick. Oh, plenty of minor infringements.  But I felt retarded even trying to argue that they were infringements. Our taxes are reasonable, laws are mostly reasonable, and we have the most soldiers of any State in the union. Our State Police are zealous in enforcing the law, but also in following it.  We have a trend of closing local police departments and outsourcing to the PSP.

Philly is a blight, sure. But they have limited power over the whole state, and generally only oppress their own residents.  Who vote for the oppression. Whatever.

In general, PA has more freedom than states more vocal about their so-called freedom. A glance at our Constitution shows you this is not a new trend. Sure, we have plenty of Dems, which may be what the original poster meant. Uhm, yea. We are not a slave to either party and it shows. I am not a completely atypical Democrat here.

My thoughts on succession are simple. Whatever. My state and I certainly won't start anything. But we have crushed invading armies before. Our hills broke the last invasion by a successionist Army intent on causing us harm. We can and will break anyone else that messes with us. Until then, we quietly mind our own affairs.

[roo_ster]

Who says a newly independent state has to replicate the entirety of the State Dept and the Defense Dept?  Yes, the Brits sent a school teacher to the Siamese court in the late 1800s, but did the USA have an ambassador to his court? [Cue score to "The King and I"]

Pretty much by definition, shedding the largest layer of gov't will result in more liberty.  So, some states might not measure up to the Randian Ideal.  Big whoop.  Leaving folks more $$$ by hacking away the federales provides more practical liberty than any "pot for 12YO kids" or anti-republibaptist state legislation.  Liberty means little without the means to exercise liberty.

[roo_ster]

Any pro-liberty movement will largely populated by those icky bapti-puritans.  The number of strictly secular liberty-minded folk is smaller than the rounding error of the liberty-minded bapti-puritans.  If the TEA party had to rely solely on the secular folk, its rallies could have met in public bathrooms with room to spare by the towel dispensers.

Face it: the bapti-puritans will be better organized and making stuff happen before the strictly secular randians have decided which copy of "The Virtue of Selfishness" to pack.