If this is TRUE?

[Werewolf]

Please read some of your own contributions to this thread, and explain how I might take them in a way that does not insult me and my beliefs as a Christian.

If you felt insulted by what I wrote that is a defect in you not me and the very fact that you felt insulted indicates a not very strong belief in what you profess. People with emotional strength and will control their own feelings while the weak and dominated allow their feelings to be dictated by others and that is really not a good thing. I for one don't want nor need to have that kind of power over you or anyone else (ick - makes me feel all slimy and dirty like a Democrat or priest or something).

Are you not clearly saying that all religious beliefs are false, and that only the stupid or weak would believe them,

Pretty much! I suppose if the shoe fits feel free to wear it.

and only the evil promote them?

Never said that - doesn't surprise me that you'd interpret it that way though - what with you taking everything so personal and all.  Get it thru your thick skull that what applies to organizations does not necessarily apply to the individuals that make up the organization.The Soviet Union as an organization was evil but most of it's populace were just regular folk trying to get by just like everyone else in the world. Islam is a religion that sponsors hate in its schools but its individual adherents are just trying to get by day to day just like everyone else.  I spent almost 30 of my 54 years traveling the world on Uncle Sam's nickle. Been to every continent except Antartica and been within 50 miles of it. Spent lots of time with the locals every where I went. And almost to a man they were all just regular folk little different from people everywhere. The same cannot be said of the countries they lived in nor the religions which they adhered to.

But I guess I'm not logical or realistic, anyway, right?

Right... And yes - make no bones about it - that is a personal attack.

Religion is just plain silly to me. Were that was all it is? The potential it has to do good is great. The potential for evil is even greater.

And with those closing words I bid this thread - aieu!

[Perd Hapley]

Werewolf, first of all, your sig line is really great.  Your preaching about power and corruption, on the other hand, is unnecessary.  Every "religionist" in this conversation agrees with you that power is likely to be abused, and that people can be led astray by respected people or organizations.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that most people are "puppets" but I would say that most people don't question or examine their beliefs as much as they ought.  This will lead some to secularism, some to traditional religions and lead others to fall for all sorts of unusual and baseless ideas about the world.  So a lot of weak-minded morons will be Christians like me, and a lot of them will agree with you, it just depends on who influences them.  

Your picture of faith is a little out of spec.  Having faith really just means putting trust in something.  Sometimes that faith is justified, sometimes not.  When it comes to the gun debate, I have faith in pro-gun scholars who have researched gun issues and you probably do too.  Unless you're a professional egghead, you probably haven't verified all of the things they say, but as far as you can tell, their stats and their arguments check out.  So, until you can do more research, you trust that they're right.  The overall position, though, is complex and is abstract enough that you can't prove either side correct.  Religion is similar.  Some religions do make claims that can be checked in the real world.  So, evaluate those claims.  Some women trust a man who turns out to be a bum, some do a better job of evaluating men, and put their faith in someone more worthwhile.  Works the other way, too.

[Perd Hapley]

Why is straight forward, blunt speech written with confidence so threatening to so many? I don't get it now and never have.

I don't think "threat" has anything to do with it on the part of us religious morons - we're just voicing our disagreement, and noting how much negative emotion you've got going there.  I sympathize, though, that people get unduly upset when I state my religious beliefs in a confident, straight-forward manner, even when they ask me to.

It is Christians and Muslims that persecute Jews because of their religion.

It was "Christians," yes.  I would estimate that presently, Christians are one of the groups less likely to persecute Jews and most likely to support Israel.  

Stop reading between the lines. Stop taking every statement personally. Think MACRO not micro.

You might tell that to the folks who interpret all talk of sin and hell as "they hate me and they're trying to control me through fear."  A Muslim could tell me I'm going to hell all day long, wouldn't bother me.  

I don't have to like but I can sure be a lonely voice in the wilderness against it if I want.

You're lonely?  Sheesh, man, there are a lot of loud, well-funded voices saying what you're saying.

[The Rabbi]

If you felt insulted by what I wrote that is a defect in you not me and the very fact that you felt insulted indicates a not very strong belief in what you profess.

...
(comment deleted because anything I write will probably get me kicked off this forum)

It was "Christians," yes.  I would estimate that presently, Christians are one of the groups less likely to persecute Jews and most likely to support Israel.

Mention this to our friends, the Presbyterians.

[Perd Hapley]

Mention this to our friends, the Presbyterians.

What have they been up to?  And would that be PCA, PCUSA or some other Presb. sect?

[grampster]

Aaaarrrgggghhh.

[Perd Hapley]

If you all read your gospels you will see that Jesus made a lot of pointed criticisms of the "organized religion" of his day.  As far as I can tell, all of the same and more besides is true of the christian church in general today.

I suppose that point is made from Christian pulpits more often than you think.  Of course, we're certainly not worse than the Jewish religion of Jesus' day, but yeah, there's always a lot of hypocrites wherever you find human beings.  

And I expect he would get the same treatment today.

That's a tricky thing to consider, when you really think about it.  However, every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross, so in a sense you're right.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Here ya go. This is what the good Rabbi was talking about.

Kinda ticks me off, since I was raised Presbyterian.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0704/prager_presbyterians.php3

Here's the original source, from PC(USA).

http://www.pcusa.org/stepstowardpeace/

and this...

http://hometown.aol.com/horselovers/presbyteriansforisrael.html

Regards,
Rabbit.

[Perd Hapley]

Oh, the Presbyterian Church, USA - the lefties.  Figures.  I did say Christians, Rabbi, not "Christians."  

[Perd Hapley]

So say goodbye to Werewolf, and he is correct; he really can't discuss these things calmly.  But don't anyone think I'm getting all hot and bothered as he so obviously is.  I'm afraid the religious types in this thread are pretty well-accustomed to anti-religious vituperation, so we're not sobbing into our hankies as he seems to imagine.  Don't even think he's begun to upset me, try as he might.  I mean, can the use of the f-word to describe religious people really come under the heading of respectful disagreement?  

Are you not clearly saying that all religious beliefs are false, and that only the stupid or weak would believe them,

Pretty much! I suppose if the shoe fits feel free to wear it.

Translation:  No fistful, I'm not insulting Wiccans, Druids, Buddhists, Deists, Methodists, Rastafarians, or dervishes, or their beliefs, I'm just saying that they're stupid and/or weak.  All of them.  Even though I've never met them and know nothing about their accomplishments as individuals.  Who could take offense?

and only the evil promote them?

Never said that - doesn't surprise me that you'd interpret it that way though - what with you taking everything so personal and all.  Get it thru your thick skull that what applies to organizations does not necessarily apply to the individuals that make up the organization.

Oh, don't worry, gentle reader, I know that The Wolfy One doesn't really mean to insult me when he claims I have a thick skull.  Perhaps I should have explained that I was speaking of the "shamans" he described so lovingly:

Organized religion is all about power and control and the shamans thereof have known it since the dawn of history.

Hence we learn that all religious leaders are domineering psychopaths.  And I suppose this next bit was meant to extol the virtues of those humble peasants who genuinely practice the Christian virtues - oh nevermind, he said they're impractical, thus showing a total ignorance of the meaning of said verses.  And then of course, there's the silly generalization that hate, fear and murder are characteristic of Christianity.  Yes, I'd say old Wolfy gets a little hot under the collar about this subject, poor dear.

Even religions like Christianity who's foundation was built on the values of a man who said love thy brother, turn the other cheek and all that other impractical BS uses hate and fear to control it's adherents. And not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other

Yup, my preacher forgives even really big sins if I bring him the head of a Jainist!

But I guess I'm not logical or realistic, anyway, right?

Right... And yes - make no bones about it - that is a personal attack.

What can I say?

[roo_ster]

How can I now leave a young boy alone with a priest and be 100% sure he won't be molested?

How can I now leave a young boy alone with 280 and be 100% sure he won't be molested?

Folks who belong to the same organizations 280 has have also molested in the past.  No way to be 100% sure he's not one of them, especially if he was in a leadership position.  Leaders of organizations are the ones who cover up the crimes of their members, don't you know...

[^^^ Example of pretty p!ss-poor reasoning, both 280's and my pseudo-response.]

[Channeling Wolfie*]All who don't dis/believe as I do are weak-minded, intolerant, and prone to murder![/Channeling Wolfie*]
That would fit in at many of the more "lively" churches I have visited in my time.

-----------

I spent almost 30 of my 54 years traveling the world on Uncle Sam's nickle. Been to every continent except Antartica and been within 50 miles of it. Spent lots of time with the locals every where I went. And almost to a man they were all just regular folk little different from people everywhere.

Rooster Cogburn

Shanghai McCoy's my name.                  
Been around the Horn,
sailed the seas,                  
seen everything, done everything,                  
that's how I know people are rotten.
I've seen 'em all.

(You really have to see it to get the full effect of McCoy's performance.)

* By means wholly materialistic and non-supernatural.  Wouldn't want to get  anybody all up in a lather by insinuating there is any other possibility.

[Tallpine]

 every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross

I rest my case .....

[mfree]

fistful wrote:
  every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross

Uhm, that's unconstitutional isn't it?

[The Rabbi]

fistful wrote:
  every human being is responsible for nailing Christ to the cross

Uhm, that's unconstitutional isn't it?

I am not sure how that comes about.  I know I wasnt there and no one asked me.
But if they had...

I'D DO IT AGAIN!!! BWAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Perd Hapley]

Sounds a lot like muslims killing the "infidels" to me...

Almost.  The jihadis would indeed be correct if God actually ordered them to kill infidels.  Yet even if we assume the jihadist, al-Qaeda view of the Koran is correct, Mohammed offerred no evidence of its veracity.  He claimed the Koran was miracle enough, even though writing a book is not a miracle.  Why believe it at all?

The Bible presents a story of men who could have no reasonable doubt that Moses and Joshua were not just saying whatever came into their heads.  The Israellites had spent forty years in the presence of constant miracles proving it.  Their clothing was miraculously preserved through decades of wandering in the desert.  They ate quail that just happened to flock in their campsite, time and time again.  They ate honest-to-goodness wonder-bread that formed on the ground every morning.  They were led by a pillar of fire in the sky at night.  They saw the face of Moses supernaturally shining after he spent time in the Tabernacle with God.  If al-Qaeda has that kind of evidence of the will of God, let them kill who they please.  

But how could God order something so horrible?  Is it really horrible for God to arrange for the death, even the violent death, of His creatures?  Of course, but who's fault is that?  From a Christian standpoint, death is the necessary judgement for human sin and the Bible points out the extreme sinfulness of the Caananites.  We're all gonna die, and God's in charge of when - for all of us.  In fact, for God to arrange the death of very young children may have even been more merciful than allowing them to grow up in a culture so depraved and hopeless.  I forgot to say that this depends on the doctrine of age of accountability, which would indicate that these kiddies would go to heaven.  Not all Christians believe in an age of accountability.  

No, that doesn't mean I should go out and murder people, and it doesn't justify abortion.  If I have to explain that, it just means you don't want to do your own thinking.

exclusionism ("everyone who doesn't believe like I do is going to hell") leads to some pretty hateful and destructive behavior.

Just like gun ownership means you're going to murder somebody.

[The Rabbi]

The Bible presents a story of men who could have no reasonable doubt that Moses and Joshua were not just saying whatever came into their heads.  The Israellites had spent forty years in the presence of constant miracles proving it.  Their clothing was miraculously preserved through decades of wandering in the desert.  They ate quail that just happened to flock in their campsite, time and time again.  They ate honest-to-goodness wonder-bread that formed on the ground every morning.  They were led by a pillar of fire in the sky at night.  They saw the face of Moses supernaturally shining after he spent time in the Tabernacle with God.  If al-Qaeda has that kind of evidence of the will of God, let them kill who they please.

I find it funny that people will accept the historical truth of Biblical accounts of wiping out different tribes, but not the historical truth of Gd's command to do so.

And I find the Christian view of death really strange.

[grampster]

And I find the Christian view of death really strange.

How so?

[Stand_watie]

If you felt insulted by what I wrote that is a defect in you not me and the very fact that you felt insulted indicates a not very strong belief in what you profess.

...
(comment deleted because anything I write will probably get me kicked off this forum)

It was "Christians," yes.  I would estimate that presently, Christians are one of the groups less likely to persecute Jews and most likely to support Israel.

Mention this to our friends, the Presbyterians.

Perhaps Fistful would have been more accurate to have detailed more carefully - 'American conservative Christians'. Even then they probably would be guilty of the persecution of "Jews" if you mean our Hollywood, leftist types, (whether of Jewish ancestry or not) of whom there are many. Although they (Noam Chomski type Jews) are some of the worst enemies of Israel in America.

Presbytarians, Episcopalians, Unitarians - Christian in name and American by geography, but many of them might as well be European by ideology.

[Perd Hapley]

Perhaps Fistful would have been more accurate to have detailed more carefully - 'American conservative Christians'. Even then they probably would be guilty of the persecution of "Jews" if you mean our Hollywood, leftist types, (whether of Jewish ancestry or not) of whom there are many.

Actually, with what we hear about Christians in "the global south," they are fairly conservative.  Whether that extends to agreeing with us Yanks about Israel and Jewish people in general, I don't know.  

But are you saying that folks like me are "persecuting" Streissand et al?  Making fun of them, maybe; persecuting them along the lines of pogroms, ghetto's, etc.?  Don't make me laugh.

[Stand_watie]

But are you saying that folks like me are "persecuting" Streissand et al?  Making fun of them, maybe; persecuting them along the lines of pogroms, ghetto's, etc.?  Don't make me laugh.

Well you know. Harsh words. Not buying their music etc. Was supposed to be funny, but I guess I missed.

[Perd Hapley]

Well, Stand, it's been a fairly tense thread; maybe too tense for such understated humor.  If you want to lighten the mood, just give us some quotations from the liberal Jewish folk in question.  Should be good for a laugh.  Wait a minute.  Is there something ironic in calling Jewish people "folks"?  Sure wouldn't please the Fuhrer.  

[The Rabbi]

Well, Stand, it's been a fairly tense thread; maybe too tense for such understated humor.  If you want to lighten the mood, just give us some quotations from the liberal Jewish folk in question.  Should be good for a laugh.  Wait a minute.  Is there something ironic in calling Jewish people "folks"?  Sure wouldn't please the Fuhrer.  

It's OK.  Volk is a Yiddish word too.  Die Yiddische Volk won't mind at all.

[Perd Hapley]

I find it funny that people will accept the historical truth of Biblical accounts of wiping out different tribes, but not the historical truth of Gd's command to do so.

And I find the Christian view of death really strange.

How do you perceive this Christian point of view, how does it differ from the Jewish pov, and what is so odd about it?  

A good point with that first part.  I was thinking about that as I wrote that post.  I guess people will believe the mass slaughter because it is not miraculous, and probably not uncommon in that time and place.  But if one doesn't trust the Bible on one point, why believe the other?  

I remember somebody on this board complaining about virgin women of some conquered tribe becoming "slaves" of their Hebrew conquerors.  Whoever that was, he/she failed to consider the plight of women in that milieu.  Slavery meant a job, food, a roof over head.  It was probably the best a woman without a family could expect in the ancient world, unless she had large amounts of money or some other special status to protect herself.

[Tallpine]

I find it funny that people will accept the historical truth of Biblical accounts of wiping out different tribes, but not the historical truth of Gd's command to do so.

whatever ... that's not the kind of god i want to believe in


or maybe they committed genocide and made up the part about god's command to justify it ...?

[Perd Hapley]

Tallpine, what do you find objectionable, that God put a stop to a culture that practiced child sacrifice, and apparently a lot of other terrible things?  Or do you believe that God does not have the right to do as He will to His creatures, who kill themselves with their own folly?

maybe they committed genocide and made up the part about god's command to justify it ...?

If they were ashamed of this genocide, why record it at all?