Author Topic: Would you support something like this?  (Read 8883 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2012, 01:04:41 PM »
Quote from: Tallpine link=topic=37487.IRK date=1356106696
I say we shoot for the moon and demand unlimited carry - then we can compromise  ;)

That's what Fitz is talking about. This is one of those compromises. The goal, at least for many of us, is true RKBA. Each compromise that allows more carry in more places is a gain.


The answer to Correia's post is: "Because we have to make changes palatable to idiots"

It sucks, and it's unfortunate, but it's likely the only feasible way to loosen some states' CCW restrictions

This a million. How is that something that still needs explaining?
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Tallpine

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2012, 02:10:23 PM »
That's what Fitz is talking about. This is one of those compromises. The goal, at least for many of us, is true RKBA. Each compromise that allows more carry in more places is a gain.


This a million. How is that something that still needs explaining?

I still don't see how suggesting a more restrictive criteria for CCW helps any.  =|

How about:

1. Allow anyone who can currently legally* CCW to carry in schools.

2. Beef up the infrastructure for "lockdowns" like putting actual locks (deadbolt handles/slide bolts that can be secured from the inside without keys) in the classrooms; installing harder classroom doors (no window to break); hardening the classroom itself with some easy measures such as bookshelves on wall adjoining the hallways.


* I want to expand that to "constutional carry" but that is out of scope of the current discussion.
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Fitz

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2012, 02:55:57 PM »
I'm not seeing how my idea is more restrictive


Currently I can't carry in those places

In my idea, I could with an additional class

Currently, I cannot

Under any definition of "more restrictive, " this is not
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Tallpine

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2012, 05:04:29 PM »
You asked a question and I answered  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2012, 07:03:19 PM »
I still don't see how suggesting a more restrictive criteria for CCW helps any.  =|


The suggestion is that certain restrictions on CCW be removed, for those who take additional training. The result would be that those able to meet the higher standard would be able to a) protect themselves and others in places previous off-limits, and b) demonstrate that guns in schools do not result in wanton violence.

This is the same thing we've been doing for the past twenty-some years, with CCW. Certain restrictions on carry have been removed, for those who take a class, undergo a background check, etc. The result is that those able to meet the criteria are able to a) protect themselves and others, and b) demonstrate that guns "on the street" do not result in wanton violence.

Nobody here is claiming that those are perfect solutions, of course. Just temporary compromises.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2012, 07:07:39 PM »

I won't try. But do you need someone to explain how compromises like CCW have been moving us toward the recognition of our fundamental rights?

New/recent CCW laws have not been compromises, they have been ground won by combat from the anti-gun advocates. They didn't give up anything to "allow" these laws to pass. They fought against them to the bitter end ... and lost. That's not "compromise."
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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2012, 07:44:10 PM »
New/recent CCW laws have not been compromises, they have been ground won by combat from the anti-gun advocates. They didn't give up anything to "allow" these laws to pass. They fought against them to the bitter end ... and lost. That's not "compromise."

This.  Many states have gone shall issue, despite the antis best efforts.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2012, 10:33:57 PM »
New/recent CCW laws have not been compromises, they have been ground won by combat from the anti-gun advocates. They didn't give up anything to "allow" these laws to pass. They fought against them to the bitter end ... and lost. That's not "compromise."


That has nothing to do with whether a CCW law is a compromise. It is a compromise because it is middle ground between actual RKBA, where we don't need a permission slip to exercise our rights; and the way it used to be thirty years ago, when carrying a gun was much more heavily regulated, or simply banned.

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vaskidmark

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2012, 12:06:16 AM »

The suggestion is that certain restrictions on CCW be removed, for those who take additional training. The result would be that those able to meet the higher standard would be able to a) protect themselves and others in places previous off-limits, and b) demonstrate that guns in schools do not result in wanton violence.

This is the same thing we've been doing for the past twenty-some years, with CCW. Certain restrictions on carry have been removed, for those who take a class, undergo a background check, etc. The result is that those able to meet the criteria are able to a) protect themselves and others, and b) demonstrate that guns "on the street" do not result in wanton violence.

Nobody here is claiming that those are perfect solutions, of course. Just temporary compromises.

And once more we come around to the fat cripple in the corner.

I go to K-12 schools a few times a year as a volunteer.  I am not aware of any scheduling program that crazy folks wanting to shoot up a school use so I can know which days to stay away.

I can shoot from my wheelchair, but I cannot pass any of the "qualifiers" or qualification rounds used by most police - mostly because of the requirement on how cover is used but also because of things like my wheelchair not being able to go sideways.  And at times I am forced to sit out there choosing between using cover and not shooting or shooting without the use of cover.  (We will not even discuss being DQ'd because it is more comfortable for me to use either a shoulder holster or some variant of off-body (murse) carry.)  In spite of all that I have never shot anybody I was not supposed to - and I shoot force on force scenarios that some of the folks I train with have dreamed up for gimps in wheelchairs.  The only accomodation I get is a rule that says they cannot shoot out my batteries (run-flat whhels, baby!).

I'm probably a minority of one here at APS, and know I am a minority of less than 1% in meatspace.  But that should not stand in the way of me being able to carry in what are currently Criminal Activity Enhancement Zones just like the rest of you.

Yes, I'm an effing minority that is going to raise all sorts of heck about ADA and other laws "protecting" the handicapped - only because you all seem content to either leave me at the curb or throw me under the bus.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2012, 12:38:27 AM »
Yes, I'm an effing minority that is going to raise all sorts of heck about ADA and other laws "protecting" the handicapped - only because you all seem content to either leave me at the curb or throw me under the bus.


I could explain why your are absolutely, 100% wrong about that, and directing your ire at the wrong people, but I already have. You would rather complain about your disability and not being able to run and gun like the cool kids, when you ought to use your brain, and read and understand the explanations that folks here have offered.

In short, no one here is "content" to have your rights infringed. That's what the anti-gun contingent wants. But some people are trying to open up a few cracks in the wall. If you can't squeeze through them, blame the people who built the wall, not the people trying to break it down a piece at a time.

Thanks for your super attitude.  ;/
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zxcvbob

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2012, 12:46:51 AM »
"It's good, though..."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2012, 01:06:52 AM »
I can't quite give up on this yet. You have this hypothetical State, right? And this State has a pretty good CCW law, except that it doesn't allow anybody to carry in schools. Nobody. Not the track stars, and not vaskidmark. Nobody.

Then the State Rifle Association says, "Hey, people need to carry guns in schools, to keep kids safe." The anti-gun dweebs say no.

Then the State Rifle Association says, "Hey, what if some of the CCW folks were able to take some additional classes, or pass some qualification; then would you anti-gun jerks let them carry guns in schools?" The measure passes.

But some people find out that their disabilities won't let them do whatever they have to do, to meet the requirements that the anti's wanted. So who do they blame? The people trying to expand CCW, or the people that require extra hoops?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2012, 01:12:09 AM »
Ok, all done. Merry Christmas.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2012, 02:37:01 AM »
Apparently you are all missing the point - the one that I thought was very large and plain to see but it turns out is not so big or so plain.

I am not in any way, shape or form blaming you for my disability or my inability to run and gun with the cool kids.  As a matter of fact I have no desire to run and gun with kids, cool or otherwise.

I am all for changing the rules to allow for carry in a GFSZ.  I just am not in favor of tying that to any sort of higher qualification level than already exists in order to have a CCW - and that's not just because I am a grumpy old cripple.  

You talk about baby steps and incremental change to expand the privilege of carrying in schools so that after X amount of time you can revisit the restrictions on where a person may carry with the view to expanding that priviolege even further.  You tie all of this to the ability to demonstrate some higher degree/level of skill.  My question is why does there need to be a higher degree/level of skill?  We are not, or so I have presumed, talking about purposely acting as security guards for the school.  We are not talking about arresting some BG and applying the correct charge against them in order to secure a conviction.  We are, at best, talking, or so I presumed, about a visitor to the school suddenly being confronted with the decision of whether or not to use a lawfully carried firearm in the defense of innocent third parties.

The state (OK, most states) already says I am fully qualified to do that in public parks, on the public street, in the parking lot of state offices (with some exceptions) and even inside public agency office buildings (again with some exceptioons).  Apparently the only thing different about schools is that they are regularly full of children.  If the potential threat of shooting a child by mistake is so high, why are all cops allowed to carry in schools instead of just those with "special training"?  We  all know that cops are not great marksmen and tend to miss their target quite a bit more frequently than they hit it, and that any bullet sent flying in a school will, like any bullet sent flying anywhere else, continue until it hits something or gravity pulls it to earth.  Given the size of every school I am aware of, that latter option is not realistic - bullets fired at the BG that do not hit the BG are highly likely to hit a child.  Will your special, enhanced, higher level of training prevent that from happening?  And why is the satate requiring that we perform at a level higher than it reqiuires of its police?

What I see and hear is that you are willing to surrender to the emotionalism of the antis.  I guess the plan is to show that the hallways did not run with rivers of blood and use that as the basis for the next incremental step.  What I fully expect to see and hear from the antis is some emotional "Yes, but..." hook against the next incremental step, and the next, until we finally run out of incremental steps.  I think that the choir has forgotten the music on this issue.  "Gun control has never been about guns" is not just a cute poster - we know that it is about controlling people.  Special permits for special people only fractures us even more than we already are, just like the duck hunters who say they do not care if the AWB comes around again because it will not effect them.  I fully expect service rifle match shooters to demand an exception for their semi-automatric rifles but otherwise have no concern about a new AWB.  Cowboy action shooters don't care because they use those nice, safe, friendly antique guns that nobody seems to be afraid of.

I probably have greater shooting skills than most cops in spite of my being in a wheelchair.  That's not the point, just as being in a wheelchair possibly limiting my ability to pass a higher level/degree of state mandated training is not the point.  I used that circumstance hoping to demonstrate that arbitrary qualkification requirements are just that - arbitrary and demonstrate nothing especially related to safe gun handling and safe gun shooting in a school that cannot already be demonstrated by the "mere" possession of a CCW.  There are those who will never get training unless forced to, and will never practice unless forced to.  Amazingly, most cops fall into this category.  There are those who will attend every kewel kid class there is so they can say they shoot just like real operators, or so they can advance in the ranks of gun games.  Based on the ads for training that I see, there are few folks interested in training for real-life situations where you just cannot, for example, draw without covering someone with the muzzle.  While it would be better if you could avoid doing that I wonder how many IDPA/IPSIC shooters would stop and not draw and shoot at the loon with a gun in the movie theater just because they would sweep some of the crowd.

The bottom line is responsibility and accountability.  The schools have done just about everything in their power to claim they are not, in fact, responsible for the kids, and they have created all sorts of zero-tolerance rules to further that aim.  We all know that the police are not responsible for protecting us as individuals.  Schools and the police make every effort to avoid being held accountable for what any individual does, be it some whack job shooting up the place or teacher using corporal punishment, or  abusing their power by doing X, Y, or Z.  On the other hand, with only the garden variety of CCW we are already held accountable and responsible for every action and every bullet.  How will holding a higher level CCW change any of that?

And then, finally, we get back to me in my wheelchair.  I can scoot and move with the rest of the kewel kids, except for going sideways or going as fast.  But do you really believe that moving sideways (getting off the X laterally for the kewel kids) will not be one of the requirements for that higher level CCW?  And silly me, I had thought stuff like knowing when to shoot and when not to shoot would be the most important factor, followed somewhere with how to shoot in/through a herd of stampeding kids.  But I do not see many trainers who are willing to invest the money needed for FATS or other go/no go simulatrion trainers - especially because not every CCW holder is going to want to get the higher level certificate.  I also do not see any trainer now (exept the military and a very few police departments) offering any training in how to shoot while in a herd of stampeding kids.  None of the "enhanced CCW" proposals I have seen or heard about are without some running-and-jumping requirements while most pay scant attention to shoot/don't shoot.  AQnd that is why I am upset that my wheelchair will most likely be an automatic disqualifier.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2012, 08:29:00 AM »
"Because we have to make changes palatable to idiots"

It sucks, and it's unfortunate, but it's likely the only feasible way to loosen some states' CCW restrictions
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Tallpine

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2012, 10:47:56 AM »
Quote
Yes, I'm an effing minority that is going to raise all sorts of heck about ADA and other laws "protecting" the handicapped - only because you all seem content to either leave me at the curb or throw me under the bus.


Don't count me in with "all"  ;)


Guns are some sort of magical destructive devices so that without any training at all except perhaps video games some nutcase can kill everyone in a school, but guns are so difficult to understand and master that the average law abiding citizen needs special training just to be able to defend his or herself and the innocent children around them.  ;/
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vaskidmark

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2012, 07:58:10 PM »
Don't count me in with "all"  ;)

Point taken.  I apologize.  I should have clearly indicated that "all" was in fact only referring to the majority.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2012, 09:16:37 PM »
In short, no one here is "content" to have your rights infringed. That's what the anti-gun contingent wants. But some people are trying to open up a few cracks in the wall. If you can't squeeze through them, blame the people who built the wall, not the people trying to break it down a piece at a time.

I don't see creating yet another class of carry permit as in any way helping to advance the cause of universal RKBA.

Remember just a couple of years ago when HR-218 (national concealed carry for active and retired LEOs)was being debated in Congress? The mantra of the LEO community when they wanted our support for HR-218 was "It's just a first step. Once we get national carry for us, people will see that it works and we'll help you guys get it for everyone."

Yeah?

We stepped up to the plate and supported HR-218 for the LEOs, and they got LEOSA. Now we want their support for more/wider carry laws for the rest of us serfs, and where are all those police officers who promised they'd help us get national carry for everyone?

<crickets>

Calling for another tier of carry permit is just reinforcing the demeaning notion that those of us who already have carry permits aren't sufficiently qualified to be allowed to defend ourselves or a child in a school. I don't find that idea in any way helpful. I find it offensive.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2012, 10:38:37 PM »
Oh, so the people who get into the double-secret CCW squad will turn into some kind of elite bunch of snobs that don't care about anyone else? Why would I believe that? Have CCW-holders begun disregarding the rights or interests of those of us who don't have CCW permits? I ask, because I don't know. I haven't noticed it. I talked to a bunch of you all about getting my CCW earlier this year, and everyone seemed to be welcoming me into the club. (And I'm the forum scapegoat, even.)

So, if you could point out how that is happening vis-a-vis those with CCW and those without, I guess I might suspect it would happen between the Joe Lunchbox CCW schlubs and the elite CCW ninjas.


But hey, at this point I'm willing to just let you guys have your way. Nobody gets to carry in schools, since that's the way you want it. Carry on.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #69 on: December 23, 2012, 12:39:08 AM »
But hey, at this point I'm willing to just let you guys have your way. Nobody gets to carry in schools, since that's the way you want it. Carry on.

That's NOT the way it is everywhere. And, in the face of the Obama administration's frontal attack on eeevillll GUNZ!, there are some knowledgeable and respectable people calling for allowing "civilian" carry in schools -- without any special tiers of license/permit. They include former U.S. Secretary of Education William Bennett; Milwaukee County Sheriff David A. Clarke, Jr.; Lt. Colonel David Grossman, one of our best (if not THE best) counter-terrorism experts.

I don't want nobody to carry in schools. I want everybody to carry in schools. Creating a new system of "uber permits" doesn't advance that goal.

The reason I mentioned LEOSA is that HR-218 was justified to us as a "first step," too. If it is a first step, it's a very long first step, because I haven't seen anything come out of it. I have no reason to believe that creating a tier of uber permits, which only reinforces the notion that "regular" permit holders aren't really qualified, would in any way help to facilitate wider acceptance of "regular" permitted carry in more places.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 12:43:31 AM by Hawkmoon »
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SteveS

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2012, 08:29:59 AM »
That's NOT the way it is everywhere. And, in the face of the Obama administration's frontal attack on eeevillll GUNZ!, there are some knowledgeable and respectable people calling for allowing "civilian" carry in schools -- without any special tiers of license/permit. They include former U.S. Secretary of Education William Bennett; Milwaukee County Sheriff David A. Clarke, Jr.; Lt. Colonel David Grossman, one of our best (if not THE best) counter-terrorism experts.

I don't want nobody to carry in schools. I want everybody to carry in schools. Creating a new system of "uber permits" doesn't advance that goal.

The reason I mentioned LEOSA is that HR-218 was justified to us as a "first step," too. If it is a first step, it's a very long first step, because I haven't seen anything come out of it. I have no reason to believe that creating a tier of uber permits, which only reinforces the notion that "regular" permit holders aren't really qualified, would in any way help to facilitate wider acceptance of "regular" permitted carry in more places.

Sorry, but I disagree. Extra permit carry in schools was our (MI) chance to get our foot in the door and show the masses that citizens wouldn't be accidentally shooting their kids or leaving their guns in the bathroom. This was vetoed and now support for any kind of non-LEO carry is very low.

I am glad some other states are considering this. Time will tell if this takes off. Maybe it can convince our Legislature to have some common sense. That being said, our past compromises have always resulted in the laws moving closer to what we want. It has improved a great deal over the past decade.
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Scout26

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #71 on: December 23, 2012, 10:52:38 AM »
There might be one unintended consequence of "Ãœber Special Permits".  And I think Texas suffers from this.

The Training Mafia.  Once you pass something like this, you then create a group of folks that does the training for the Ãœber Special permits.  And once you have a group of folks on that gravy train, they will fight tooth and nail to prevent that gravy train from being overturned.

That is one problem with having "training requirements", it become an industry, with a lobbying group.  And suddenly those who you thought were your friends are now your enemies when it comes to loosening up CCW/LTC.
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Tallpine

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2012, 11:02:38 AM »
Quote
Calling for another tier of carry permit is just reinforcing the demeaning notion that those of us who already have carry permits aren't sufficiently qualified to be allowed to defend ourselves or a child in a school. I don't find that idea in any way helpful. I find it offensive.

Seconded.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2012, 11:15:30 AM »
Quote
Calling for carry permits is just reinforcing the demeaning notion that those of us who don't have carry permits aren't sufficiently qualified to be allowed to defend ourselves or a child in a school. I don't find that idea in any way helpful. I find it offensive.

Firsted.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Would you support something like this?
« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2012, 06:12:39 PM »
Actually, on a national level we have probably at least four tiers of permits already.

Vermont has Constutional carry and does not issue permits, even as an option.

Alaska, Arizona (and Wyoming?) have Constitutional carry but will give rent you a permit if you need one for reciprocity.

Some states such as Pennsylvania allow open carry but require a permit for concealed carry, but the permits are shall issue and there is no training requirement.

Some states require proof of firearms safety training as a prerequisite to getting a permit, but there are many affordable ways to satisfy that. (Such as Florida, which accepts a hunting safety class or even a 30-year old DD-214.) My state requires the NRA Basic Pistol course, and will not accept a hunter safety course for issue of a carry permit.

And then there are states such as Texas (or maybe no others quite as draconian as Texas) that require an extensive (and expensive) class PLUS a live fire course that's not much different from what many police departments use for annual qualification. AND, Texas requires you to shoot the course again, every time you renew your permit.

It's very inconsistent from state to state, which is a big reason why reciprocity is such a patchwork affair. And the bottom line, of course, is that licenses and permits and proof of training are ALL infringements on the RKBA, and the 2nd Amendment is supposed to not allow that. (But the SCOTUS has admitted they can't read decreed otherwise.

Given that 50 states (plus the District of Columbia) already can't agree on how safe is safe enough, even IF we were to agree in principle that a "second tier" permit should be allowed to carry in schools -- who is going to decide what level of training is enough to qualify for this second tier? Heck, the standard Texas training may already be MORE than what most states would regard as a higher level.

Ssssssslippery sssssssslope.
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100% Politically Incorrect by Design