Saw an interesting contrast on the way to work this morning...

[brimic]

My current job is near downtown Milwaukee and the shortest route to get there is through some of the worst neighborhoods in the city. I drive that way in the morning as most of the bad apples are still sleeping or shaking off whatever booze or drugs they consumed the day before. After work in the afternoon I take a much longer, safer route home.

Every morning on the outskirts of the bad area, there is a black gentleman who works a busy intersection selling fruit. He is clean cut looking, always wears nice slacks, and a shirt and tie- he would fit in as a executive at any bank in town. He parks his car in an unused parking lot early in the morning, every morning, with several crates of fruit which he bags up and sells to people waiting for the traffic signals to change. He looks like he is doing ok, He probably makes $5-10 every time I wait at that intersection in the morning, which might be about a minute- multiply that by the number of times the light is red during morning rush hour.

About 10 blocks further down, I came to a traffic light where another black man was sitting on a milk crate on the left hand side of the road about 20 yards in front of the intersection. This man was dishevelled looking, bugeyed, malnurished, most likely a crackhead. He was sitting on the side of the road shouting profanities and threats at the top of his lungs to people driving through or stopped at the light. I can't repeat some of the things he shouted but here's a edited sampling
"F- you whitey, I'll f-ing kill you"
"Don't look at me, I'm not you're boy you mf-er"
"F-ing MF-ing F-ing white people I f-ing hate all of you MF-ing MF-ers"
"Oh yeah, I should come over and kick they living MF-ing sh- out ofyour M-fing white asses"
"Mf-ers"

My only thoughts were, I hope he has a drug overdose soon, and my car's console will probably have a 1911 tucked in it from now on. I've been warned about the area I drive through, in fact, my neighbor got mugged their a few years back while on the job.

[280plus]

We have areas and people like that here in Hartford. When I know I'm passing through a bad place at a bad time I take my pistol out and tuck it under my weakside leg so I can grab it quick should I need to.

One time I got dumped off the GWB in NYC at like 2 A.M. because of a detour. Not the most friendly place. I think it was Brooklyn but I'm not sure. I was (naturally) unarmed, being in NYC and all . The only trouble I had was convincing the guy on the corner that I did NOT need my windshield washed with his dirty rag for a quarter.

[cosine]

Not to rain on your parade, and it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, and all that, but I just thought I'd give you the heads up that that might be illegal in Milwaukee. However, if I recall correctly, last year a guy shot another guy in self-defense during a carjacking with a gun he had kept hidden under his seat in the car and the DA refused to press charges.

I'm not a lawyer, and this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it, (how many more cliches can I fit in this post? ).

Stay safe and sound.

[brimic]

Cosine- I know the laws and know its illegal, it the only reason why I don't carry already
I have a live and let live attitude and really don't care much about what others do no matter how obnoxious they get, but I have 2 kids to feed and want to come home in one piece at the end of the day. This tool bag on the side of the road was probably nothing but a fairly harmless racist with no where he had to be that day but to sit and try to scare the sheeple. I'm more worried about the not so crazy ones who might try to approach while I'm stuck in traffic.  
Haven't spent too much time in Milwaukee until I started my new job a few months ago and I'm getting an education. 2 weeks ago, 2 people were shot on the route I take to work.

[AJ Dual]

What's the route your taking?

I worked a jobsite for a month up in Brown Deer,where the most direct route from my home in West Allis was Sherman Blvd.  Seeing the old mansions that line the street, some being re-habbed by "urban pioneers" is strange. It's a busy throughfare so it's "okay", but one little detour a block to the side...

Going from West to East, taking Capitol Dr. all the way from Pewaukee to Shorewood is an interesting little antropological experiment too.

Another "funny" episode was when a co-worker was visiting for three months from our Indian office for training. He was staying downtown in the nice Residence Inn carved out of the old Marshal Field's in Grand Avenue mall, with access to the Riverwalk and the mall, pretty swank overall.

However, wanted to go shopping for basic sundries, and stuff that's not cheap in India, looking for a Wal-Mart type store, instead of a department store, so he asked the concierge desk where the closest Mega-Stores were that he could access by MCTS bus.

They sent him to Capitol Court. LOL...

The guy is from a well-to-do family in New Delhi, currently living in Bangalore (high tech boomtown), so you know he has had to have seen some pretty bad shanty-town stuff in New Delhi that makes the worst Milwaukee has to offer look like Beverly Hills, but Capitol Court had him shaken. I guess it's the people, and not the scenery...

I asked him about it, his eyes got big, and all he would do is say "Oooohhhhh Not good! Not good!" and then he broke into a pantomime of the thuggish swagger of the young male residents of the area. I was glad he survived, but I fought hard to hold back the tears from my badly supressed case of the "funeral giggles".

He had a good time when I took him to The Shooter's Shop though. After we were done shooting, we window shopped for a bit. When I told the staff he was from India, they jumped into action, getting him to pose for his camera with every sexy gun they had on the wall, including thier Barrett .50.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

If you think you need your pistol to be safe, you shouldn't be there.  Take the long way into work in the morning too, not just the evening.  The few minutes you save isn't worth the possibility of having to shoot someone.

[AJ Dual]

If you think you need your pistol to be safe, you shouldn't be there.  Take the long way into work in the morning too, not just the evening.  The few minutes you save isn't worth the possibility of having to shoot someone.

Milwaukee has a problem, essentialy, it limps along without a complete freeway system. And the A#1 downtown interchange is under a multi-year renovation, making certain ramp directions unpassable.

On the north side of the city, there is no east-west freeway bypass. Milwaukee was supposed to have a "loop" like most other urban areas, but the north leg of it got fought to a standstill by community pressure in the 60's. So lots of commuters have no choice but to cut through Milwaukee's less than desireable northwestern "crime/poverty axis".

There is one other factor. You've got to take a grain of salt when you hear WI APS'ers and THR's talking about Milwaukee.

To the eyes of our straight-laced Midwestern Wisconsinites, what looks like the "ghetto" would often be a pretty middle-of-the-road neighborhood in a city like Chicago, Detroit, Philidelphia, or St. Louis. I would do anything to not raise my family on that side of town, nor would I hang out there after dark, but you've also got to realize that much of what will freak a suburban Wisconsinite out of thier mind is still a far cry from some hell-hole like Gary Indiana, or Chicago's south side as well.

The "worst of the worst" in Milwaukee is confined to smaller pockets, like a particular block, or apartment complex, that the average commuter on the main through streets would be hard pressed to find, even by accident.

[doczinn]

The few minutes you save isn't worth the possibility of having to shoot someone.

While I would prefer not to have to shoot anyone, I won't go very far out of my way to avoid it. I refuse to allow the goblins to dictate my schedule or my route.

[280plus]

I don't know how it is today but in the West Palm Beach, Fla area when I lived there all the rich folk had NO CHOICE but to drive their Mercedes' and Rolls Royces right through the worst sections of town to get to the bridge to Palm Beach Island and their mansions. I always considered it a kind of poetic justice.

Ditto on what Doczinn said. The route east into West Htfd is much quicker going right down Albany Ave rather than cutting around it and taking the "safe" route. I almost ALWAYS take the Albany Ave route, day or night. When I do I try to keep my eyes open and be aware of what's going on around me. In all the years I've driven there the only problem I ever had was a kid throwing a snowball at the truck on Halloween night. I just kept on a drivin'. Then a couple days later I saw a news story about some kids getting shot on Albany Ave for throwing snowballs at cars.

[brimic]

What's the route your taking?

HWY 145->Fondulac Ave-> North Ave.   I work near Columbia St Mary's hospital on the east side.If I'm not in a big hurry to get home, I just take North->HWY43-> Brown deer on the way home, it worries me a whole lot less.

It might not be the worst place in the world, but I wouldn't want to be dropped in the area between North, Locust, 27th and Fondulac in the middle of the night from what I've seen driving through the area.

[brimic]

Like DocZinn said also, I don't allow goblins and goobers to dictate my life any more than I need to. There is no direct or straight highway route from where I work to where I live.

[AJ Dual]

What's the route your taking?

It might not be the worst place in the world, but I wouldn't want to be dropped in the area between North, Locust, 27th and Fondulac in the middle of the night from what I've seen driving through the area.

Oh absolutely. I wouldn't either...

I'm not trying to imply that WI APS'ers are "freaked out of thier minds" but just that it's the general feeling of the state. I'm just trying to give non WI, non Milwaukee Metro APS'ers some perspective.  WI posters are represented a bit above average, and due to the state's lack of CCW, I think it combines to give others an innacurate picture of just how "bad" our bad areas are.

Of course, even if Milwaukee's ghetto isn't as "bad" as many other cities, it's only natural for us to wish we could avoid them, or that they were better.

[Monkeyleg]

brimic, when I read your first post, I guessed that you were taking Fond du Lac Ave.

No way I'd drive down that avenue unarmed. I don't care what the law is.

Back to your original post, though:

You'll see similar contrasts on the south side. There's a Mexican guy with a cart that sells some sort of Mexican specialty (I can't read Spanish) who is usually parked near 6th and Oklahoma. He seems to do a very good business.

Drive up 6th Street, and you'll be greeted by glares from some pretty rough-looking punks.

Hell, just stop at a stoplight and you'll often find someone staring at you with blinding hatred in his eyes.

It's going to be a long, hot summer.

[Ezekiel]

The few minutes you save isn't worth the possibility of having to shoot someone.

While I would prefer not to have to shoot anyone, I won't go very far out of my way to avoid it.

(sigh)

I'm forced to agree with Headless Thompson Gunner on this one (the sane portion of the above quote), and decidedly NOT the "rest."  I, too, think Brimic should consider a different route if he feels unsafe, not "go in strapped" (my words), with a mere preference to not shoot anyone.

Avoid the situation altogether!  It is the better part of valour and avoids "Gun Mentality": i.e., carrying makes me safe and I can involve myself in places or situations best left avoided.  (With the full theorum ending in "I killed someone and it was their fault.")

Seems easy.

[doczinn]

I think you have far too much reverence for human life, Ezekiel. Why should it bother me if some scumbag commits suicide?

Would it bother you if the scumbag shot himself in the head? Probably not.

Would it bother you if he attacked a police officer and got killed? Probably not.

Would it bother you if he attacked some other armed citizen and got killed? Probably not.

So why should it be any different if you happen to be the instrument he chooses to commit suicide?

It wouldn't bother me.

[Ezekiel]

I think you have far too much reverence for human life, Ezekiel. Why should it bother me if some scumbag commits suicide?

Would it bother you if the scumbag shot himself in the head? Probably not.

Would it bother you if he attacked a police officer and got killed? Probably not.

Would it bother you if he attacked some other armed citizen and got killed? Probably not.

So why should it be any different if you happen to be the instrument he chooses to commit suicide?

It wouldn't bother me.

Honestly?  "Valid points."

I will think about such.  

The first step, I think -- and I have ample reason to believe otherwise -- is that I don't identify humans I've never met as "scumbags."  It's a mindset I'll not allow myself to entertain...

[doczinn]

I don't identify humans I've never met as "scumbags."  It's a mindset I'll not allow myself to entertain...

Nor do I without some knowledge - but by using force to try to rob someone of their property, he proves he's worthy of the name, and thus not worthy of any pity whatsoever if he dies in the attempt.

[Ezekiel]

I don't identify humans I've never met as "scumbags."  It's a mindset I'll not allow myself to entertain...

Nor do I without some knowledge - but by using force to try to rob someone of their property, he proves he's worthy of the name, and thus not worthy of any pity whatsoever if he dies in the attempt.

Screaming at someone is decidedly NOT "force."  (Original post.)  In fact, short of the immediate threat of DEADLY force being applied to YOUR PERSON, folks have no justification for the introduction of a firearm into the equation: that just get's the ball rolling...

By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter.

Shooting someone -- or thinking about shooting someone -- who screams at you is like swatting a fly with a Buick, and is representative of the sort of "cowboy justice" supported by irreverent gun owners and those with Freudian fear of people different from themselves.

Escalating a situation due to the presence of a nickel-plated metaphorical penis is sad, especially when the moronic introduction of said variable is often what initiates a fatal situation.  "Life is too short for my mere ego to cause a death."

[doczinn]

Screaming certainly does not warrant deadly force. I'm not talking about the particular situation mentioned in the original post; I'm referring to the general type of incidents that people are trying to avoid when they avoid "that part of town," e.g. mugging.

short of the immediate threat of DEADLY force being applied to YOUR PERSON, folks have no justification for the introduction of a firearm into the equation

I disagree. I'd say that as soon as a person deliberately applies any amount of force to deprive me of my property, I have the moral right to threaten and, if necessary, to use deadly force.

And if you think ego or phallic symbols have anything to do with it at all, you've read far too much Freud.

[Ezekiel]

Screaming certainly does not warrant deadly force. I'm not talking about the particular situation mentioned in the original post; I'm referring to the general type of incidents that people are trying to avoid when they avoid "that part of town," e.g. mugging.

short of the immediate threat of DEADLY force being applied to YOUR PERSON, folks have no justification for the introduction of a firearm into the equation

I disagree. I'd say that as soon as a person deliberately applies any amount of force to deprive me of my property, I have the moral right to threaten and, if necessary, to use deadly force.

And if you think ego or phallic symbols have anything to do with it at all, you've read far too much Freud.

Can one read too much Freud?  

I can see the basis for our general disagreement, however: I absolutely do not believe that just any amount of force is justification for the reciprocal use of DEADLY force.  (Actually, think such an idea is grotesque.)  Such threat must come from the immediate presence of DEADLY force and introduction therein -- by the threatened or either party -- is moronic.

Is that a high standard?  "You bet."  Is it the only morally defensible one?  "I would say so."

Anything else and citizens have become nothing but personal Charlemagnes: raining death upon a metaphorical nation [person] because someone laid hand (scratched?) a Roman within the farthest reaches of the realm.

Best defense?  "Avoid that part of town."

Again, this does not appear difficult, to me.

[Perd Hapley]

By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter.

Did you think this was DU, or were you intending to make a fool of yourself with that idiotic comment?

[doczinn]

I absolutely do not believe that just any amount of force is justification for the reciprocal use of DEADLY force.

Nor do I. But, any amount of force at all is justification for the threat of deadly force, and the will to use it.

[280plus]

Screaming is one thing, screaming and approaching me is another.

BTW I reread the first post and all I was thinking was "New York Stare". You all know what that is? In a situation where someone is yelling or whatever at you as you're driving you stare straight ahead and pretend they don't exist. That's the New York Stare.

[Ezekiel]

By definition, a firearm escalates ANY encounter.

Did you think this was DU, or were you intending to make a fool of yourself with that idiotic comment?

Dude, that's solid (my view), and YOU'RE a dumbass if you do not believe such.

It's like introducing nukes -- BY DEFINITION -- "you" introduced the over the top element.

Read a book...

[Ezekiel]

I absolutely do not believe that just any amount of force is justification for the reciprocal use of DEADLY force.

Nor do I. But, any amount of force at all is justification for the threat of deadly force, and the will to use it.

Disagreement abounds.

Are you going to brandish a firearm if a nine-year-old demands your Rolex?

"Loser."

I'll just kick his ass.

The "threat" of deadly force is EXACTLY THE SAME as using it.  (Because, obviously, you feel "justified" in doing so.)

For ANY[/b] threat of force you feel "justified?"

I am seriously considering if you can be trusted with a firearm...