Author Topic: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way  (Read 2581 times)

vaskidmark

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RtlYi1yLTVQ

I'm not sure what level of beverage alert to attach to this.  You are on your own as far as that goes.

I watched it a couple of times just to see if the guy finally learned.  He did not. =(

stay safe.
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brimic

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 03:08:29 PM »
 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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MechAg94

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2013, 05:18:12 PM »
 =D
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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2013, 07:05:05 PM »
 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
"Always discharge a board before touching it."  ~~ Warning #7846648675645234. :rofl: :rofl:




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Stetson

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2013, 08:05:19 PM »
3 times and he still didn't learn.... I know people like that.  I need to mack a mock board and charge it  :rofl:

RoadKingLarry

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2013, 09:15:59 PM »
Fun with electricity.

On my first boat we had a mixed nuts can that we had glued a large capacitor into the bottom  We'd charge the cap with a variable power supply we had and then set the can on a shelf that was about head high and wait. Much hilarity ensued for many weeks, until the XO got it.
 
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BryanP

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2013, 10:11:04 PM »
Oh wow. I have to share this with some people.  Thanks.
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Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 01:42:06 AM »
Everybody in EE classes did similar at least once...

Except me. I have unique electrical properties, and can grab electric fences with impunity.  ???

RocketMan

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2013, 02:05:57 AM »
I have unique electrical properties, and can grab electric fences with impunity.

That explains a few things.
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TechMan

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 07:32:12 AM »
The best part is that he went through all that and still posted the video, it's not like redoing the video would cost him that much more.
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Fly320s

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 08:45:51 AM »
There is no doubt he got shocked, but the rest was staged. Acting. He let himself get shocked and the edited the video to make it funny. It worked, because I was laughing even though I watched it at 5:15am.
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Strings

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2013, 02:34:25 PM »
Huh. All we ever did was charge up loose caps and toss 'em...
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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2013, 06:22:43 PM »
Huh. All we ever did was charge up loose caps and toss 'em...

At one job I used to have I operated an old Xerox high output copier... a 9400 model IIRC.  They had capacitors in them the size of coffee cans.  They came with a connector across the poles so they couldn't "charge" due to static electricity.
YOU DID NOT WANT TO BE HANDLING THEM WHEN THEY WERE CHARGED!
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Strings

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2013, 11:55:11 PM »
Hmmm... I wonder if something like that could be charged while in the bucket of a catapult...
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vaskidmark

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2013, 05:08:28 AM »
Hmmm... I wonder if something like that could be charged while in the bucket of a catapult...

Yes.

Just be sure to have some trailing wires so contact can be made without actually seeing/coming in contact with the actual capacitor.  (Memories of hi-jinks and horseplay in the commo shop, where it might have been possible for capacitors to be laying around just about anywhere.)

stay safe,
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

birdman

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2013, 09:11:56 AM »
So just last week I was testing a board I had built which has close to 4uF of capacitors on it AT 600V!

You'd be amazed the safety precautions I had to take in testing, as well as continuous admonishment to others present that if you touch this, it WILL kill you.  No one tried, thank god, but you could see the thought process of "are you sure, I mean, it doesn't look dangerous"

Needless to say, I've built quite a few safeties into the design, including a few 2W 360k resistors across the supply leads to ensure fast bleed-down (touch safe in way less than a second) and a few other tricks. 

It's hard explaining to early 20's folks that "just like a CRT, this can kill you"...the only experience they have is with low voltage modern stuff or AC.  Ugh.

mtnbkr

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2013, 09:46:38 AM »
Hang around some old-school amateur radio folks, especially those who like to use, build, and modify legal-limit amps, and you'll hear some interesting stories.

Chris

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2013, 10:28:39 AM »
So just last week I was testing a board I had built which has close to 4uF of capacitors on it AT 600V!

You'd be amazed the safety precautions I had to take in testing, as well as continuous admonishment to others present that if you touch this, it WILL kill you.  No one tried, thank god, but you could see the thought process of "are you sure, I mean, it doesn't look dangerous"

Needless to say, I've built quite a few safeties into the design, including a few 2W 360k resistors across the supply leads to ensure fast bleed-down (touch safe in way less than a second) and a few other tricks. 

It's hard explaining to early 20's folks that "just like a CRT, this can kill you"...the only experience they have is with low voltage modern stuff or AC.  Ugh.

4 uF can be lethal at the proper voltage?
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2013, 10:30:15 AM »
Reminds me of a story Dad told me...  He's a mechanical engineer, and was touring a steel foundry one day.  It had a couple of electric arc furnaces, and part of the tour he was given included walking *between* the air-break switches and the capacitor banks used to extinguish the arc.  The guy walking him through the place told him that if he hears the air-break switches open, to NOT MOVE because the 8 foot tall capacitor he was standing next to would be charged, and touching it would *not* end well.
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birdman

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2013, 03:58:02 PM »
4 uF can be lethal at the proper voltage?


Easily.  It's over half a joule of stored energy, and at that voltage, skin resistance is only about 1.5-2kohms, or a peak current of 300-400mA, easily enough to kill, and way more than enough to immobilize you, and then kill you, as its enough to cause breakdown in the skin (which lowers resistance) and then kill you,

Bigjake

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2013, 07:02:54 PM »
Yes.

Just be sure to have some trailing wires so contact can be made without actually seeing/coming in contact with the actual capacitor.  (Memories of hi-jinks and horseplay in the commo shop, where it might have been possible for capacitors to be laying around just about anywhere.)

stay safe,

Some things never change,  and your average 0621 never learns  >:D

CNYCacher

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2013, 10:30:29 PM »
Easily.  It's over half a joule of stored energy, and at that voltage, skin resistance is only about 1.5-2kohms, or a peak current of 300-400mA, easily enough to kill, and way more than enough to immobilize you, and then kill you, as its enough to cause breakdown in the skin (which lowers resistance) and then kill you,

Correct me if my maths is off.  Me and Ohm are old friends but we don't talk much anymore.  4uF can sustain a current of 400mA for about 1/100,000 of a second?

TIL about dielectric breakdown of human skin
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

birdman

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 08:15:02 AM »
Correct me if my maths is off.  Me and Ohm are old friends but we don't talk much anymore.  4uF can sustain a current of 400mA for about 1/100,000 of a second?

TIL about dielectric breakdown of human skin

TIL?

Charge is capacitance times voltage 4uF * 600V = 2.4mC, or 400mA for 0.006s.  The actual kill current can be MUCH lower depending on path as well.

While skin resistance (the dominant part of the whole body resistance) can be very high at low voltage / dry conditions, it decreases steadily with voltage due to breakdown of the insulating keratin layer on skin (which is very thin) so what usually happens at these voltages is the current starts small, say 10-20mA until a carbonized path on the skin is created, then jumps.  6ms of the higher current is sufficient to kill.

If the skin doesn't break down, and the resistance stays high in the 10-20kOhm range, the current drops to a peak of 30-60mA, more than enough to paralyze muscles, and the duration jumps.  Since the current follows a decay law, the actual duration above the paralyzingly level stays for much longer, which makes it sufficient to cause fibrillation.

I'm not saying it would be absolutely lethal in all cases, just that the probability is high enough that there is sufficient danger.

Defibrillators use voltages of 300-1000V, and a waveform 5-10ms long, with peak currents on the order of many amps, and can do so because the paddles and gel dramatically reduce contact resistance.  However, the high currents are needed to ensure that 100% of the time, the current through the heart is sufficient.  With the accidental case, the probability is determined by the path, but if the path is right, a far smaller current with that kind of duration can cause fibrillation.

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 08:49:04 AM »
TIL means "Today I Learned".  Translated: your post made me look up more about the effects of electric shock on the body.  Your 1-2kOhm figure seemed very low, until I researched it. Now I know.

I was also under the impression that 1F = 1C in all cases, which explains my being off by a factor of 600 on the time thing

On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

birdman

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Re: How to test for effects of electrostatic discharge - the hard way
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 09:44:07 AM »
TIL means "Today I Learned".  Translated: your post made me look up more about the effects of electric shock on the body.  Your 1-2kOhm figure seemed very low, until I researched it. Now I know.

I was also under the impression that 1F = 1C in all cases, which explains my being off by a factor of 600 on the time thing



Ah, TIL what TIL means :)

The definition of farad is coulomb per volt, as its actually a quadruple derived unit, as:
1 farad = 1 coulomb per volt

1 volt = 1 (joule)/(ampere-second) : a volt is defined as the electric potential over which movement of one coulomb requires one joule.

1 ampere = 1 coulomb / second

1 joule = 1 newton-meter

1 newton = 1 kg-m/s^2

So 1 farad = C/V = C*A*s / J = C*A*s / N*m = (C*s)^2 / (kg*m^2).
The last one is in MKS fundamental units, you could make it more fundamental by making C in units of electron charge, mass in units of inverse seconds, and meters in units of seconds as such:
1 C = 6.25x10^18 e
1 kg = 9x10^16 J = ~1.5x10^50 inverse seconds
1m = 1/c = ~3.3x10^-9 s

So now its
1 Farad = 2.6x10^4 electron-charge squared * seconds cubed.  Now that's fundamental.  (I had an annoying prof. Once who wanted an entire problem set done with the only units being truly fundamental universal ones, like seconds.  I'm sure one could define electron charge using only fundamental constants like the josephson constant, which is the inverse of h/2e to inter-relate magnetic quanta and seconds, so with a unit flux device, one volt is 4.8x10^14 inverse seconds, as that quantization is what inter-relates current and voltage in fundamental units, but I have to go back to work now)

So a farad is technically a measure of energy required to separate a certain quantity of charge.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 09:55:05 AM by birdman »